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Old 08-28-2019, 07:56 AM
 
2,205 posts, read 612,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
Right, but here is something you might not get. You assume/think that in a strip club or a Hooters, the women are objectifying themselves and the only Real People in the room are the men. I don't think you grasp what the perspective of the women might be in that situation. (You realize they have a perspective?)

See I don't care if a man thinks I'm an object if I have no respect for HIM as a person and I'm on a mission to use him, too. In those settings, you think of it as the woman being used and dehumanized because the guy gets an eyefull. But dude, that eyefull ain't free. She's taking advantage of his "d'hurrr...bewbies..." to empty his wallet. It's kind of the whole point.

It doesn't matter if a man doesn't respect me, if I have no reason to care what he thinks.

But in a DATING situation, in theory at least, you're supposed to be trying to form a possible relationship. I mean at least, it's one path people do tend to take from that beginning. I don't want to invest my emotions and time and effort and money and life entanglement in someone who doesn't even see me as a thinking, functioning human being, but just a pretty THING he covets.

And lest it seem like I'm kvetching only from the woman's side of this, it has long been my opinion and observation that a failure to take the time to get to know the person, how they think, what motivates them...is harmful not only to women but to men. I mean guys talk about being scared that they'd marry a woman and she'd divorce him and take half of his stuff and never let him see his kids. Well all that sounds like pretty petty, spiteful, crummy, vindictive behavior to me, assuming he doesn't deserve that for being some sort of an abuser or something right? Now how in the hell are you gonna get all the way to the marital vows, without finding out that person beside you is a petty, spiteful, piece of work like that? "D'hurrrr....bewbiesss...." Or more importantly they didn't give much thought to the agency of that pretty woman, that she might even DO much of anything at all. Letting superficial qualities blind one to the nature of someone they are starting up a connection with, can be quite a problem. Hence...it can make sense to take one's time, before getting all invested. Some people are self-aware enough to know that sex is likely to trigger emotional investment for them...and for some, it might not necessarily. I've known men who want to take a bit of time before jumping into bed, too. A man certainly should want to take a minute before making any commitments or promises, in my opinion.

Thankfully I've known enough men to know that it is NOT by default, "the nature of the beast," to be dazzled in this way, which, as I've tried to explain, also makes them vulnerable (not that they're seeing it that way at the time.)
Okay, let's steer away from women who objectify themselves. By the way, there are some women that do it, but not there to get bills in their G-string, but just more so putting themselves on display.

TO be honest, with online dating, I"d see even women say..."Hey, don't mean to sound shallow, but let's not fool ourselves, physical attraction is important...and if I don't find you as such, then you won't be getting a reply". So some may plain outright say it.

It's kind of them like pointing out the elephant in the room. "I have to be physically attracted!"

I am paraphrasing, but there some women that put it out there that looks DO matter. Yes, even to them. They'll say things like, "He must have a full head of hair" or "Please be at least 6 feet tall" IN their profiles. Of course, a few of them are quite the knock-out themselves, so...it kind of makes sense. You better be able to bring to the table that they can also bring to the table. So then we get into the whole "Dating your equal in looks" thing.

So yeah, women can have physical deal breakers that makes them sound shallow. Most women leave that out of their profile, for fear of sounding caustic.

Men in real life typically approach women based on what? "Hey she's cute, I want to go over and talk to her!"

Can you really fault him for that? Not really, because there's still the "Talking" part. If you talk to her, and find out she's a **tch, then you can move on. Or go out on a few dates with said cute women, find out she's a **tch, then move on."

Wash-rinse-repeat. No health conscious person is going to approach a 300 lb Jabba-the-hutt sized person.
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Old 08-28-2019, 08:04 AM
 
13,226 posts, read 10,175,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
Right, but here is something you might not get. You assume/think that in a strip club or a Hooters, the women are objectifying themselves and the only Real People in the room are the men. I don't think you grasp what the perspective of the women might be in that situation. (You realize they have a perspective?)
I know one stripper whose view on objectification is sort of -- what's good for the goose is good for the gander. She may be a physical object. But he is an ATM object. Eye-roll with a lot of dismissiveness for "a guy like that".
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Old 08-28-2019, 08:10 AM
 
2,205 posts, read 612,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
I know one stripper whose view on objectification is sort of -- what's good for the goose is good for the gander. She may be a physical object. But he is an ATM object. Eye-roll with a lot of dismissiveness for "a guy like that".
We are in flux between women that HATE This with a passion and women that still try to win Biker Babe Bikini competitions, "Sponsored by Hooters". There's this over 50 lady I know that's a body builder/model, but tends to oversexualize herself, dental floss bikinis and such.... but yet I saw her on the Match site. She's on Instagram a lot, takes pics of her boobs/body (neck down, no head). She admitted in a YouTube interview she just loves attention.

So...I guess money has been replaced with simple Instagram attention.

You can tell a woman is overtly sexualizing herself if she aims the camera at her boobs, stomach, all the way down. I see this in dating profiles of women at the beach, where they are laying back, camera pointed from their boobs to their feet, with the ocean in the scene. Then they have, "If you're looking for a one-night stand, don't bother!"

Yet she puts in caps, "I'm not looking for a one-night stand! So if you're just trying to get in my pants, don't even think about it" yet, she has these Brazilian style bikinis in her dating profile....all the while whatever thirsty men are looking at the computer screen have a pup-tent in their pants.

Then they complain they get emails from "pervs".

Sure, I've heard women complain about OLD perves when they have tasteful attire, but the aforementioned descriptions seems to reinforce it and doesn't help their cause. Some people can just be walking contradictions.
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Old 08-28-2019, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Colorado
12,340 posts, read 7,542,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisTown123 View Post
Okay, let's steer away from women who objectify themselves. By the way, there are some women that do it, but not there to get bills in their G-string, but just more so putting themselves on display.

TO be honest, with online dating, I"d see even women say..."Hey, don't mean to sound shallow, but let's not fool ourselves, physical attraction is important...and if I don't find you as such, then you won't be getting a reply". So some may plain outright say it.

It's kind of them like pointing out the elephant in the room. "I have to be physically attracted!"

I am paraphrasing, but there some women that put it out there that looks DO matter. Yes, even to them. They'll say things like, "He must have a full head of hair" or "Please be at least 6 feet tall" IN their profiles. Of course, a few of them are quite the knock-out themselves, so...it kind of makes sense. So then we get into the whole "Dating your equal in looks" thing.

So yeah, women can have physical deal breakers that makes them sound shallow. Most women leave that out of their profile, for fear of sounding caustic.
Yes, some women this, and not all men that. Do you not get that I pretty much always talk about how these things aren't universal? Not all women want to wait to have sex, either. But the ones who care about more than what's on the surface often do.

And if a woman is looking for a RELATIONSHIP, then while there might be certain appearance-based things that may be deal breakers for her, I'd lay my money on her having a need to get to know a guy and WHO he is beyond what is skin deep. Meeting one's requirements in the looks department is only the first hurdle. I mean, for me, gross nasty black and brown teeth are a dealbreaker. A funky body odor is a dealbreaker. Superficial qualities might eliminate a lot of men I don't want to date, but nice teeth and nice smell alone won't get me hooked, either.

As opposed to the fella who is like, "She's hot, would smash, oh, she's talking to me?? Better LOCK HER DOWN..." Which again, I could point to my friend/coworker, who is beautiful and exciting, but also bipolar and destructive and quite a heavy drinker...but every guy, from the farm boy from North Dakota to the bikers, to the older guys...like every man she meets wants to leap into a commitment within the first week of knowing her. I cannot imagine them thinking of her as a sensible choice of a wife, or life partner, but meh, she's hot. Well, that choice might bite 'em in the backsides later.

Obviously women do the same thing in a sense though, if we let superficial qualities get us to have sex with a guy, and then we feel emotionally attached and want to keep him around, but whoops he turns out to not be all that in the character department and we got burned. That's what I'm trying to say though, "play superficial games, win superficial prizes."

For every thing where you can point at a gender and say "men do this" or "women do that" there is a flip side, a whole bunch of exceptions, and reactionary behavior from the other gender, in the overall scene of hetero dating and mating.

I think what is more significant is... Women talk about waiting for sex. More men (stereotypically) talk about waiting for commitment, or avoiding that. The women who are keen to wait for sex are saying it's because it can cause a natural and involuntary kind of blind emotional investment (a desire for commitment that might not be available.) Men deny that they experience this, but I've seen it and I know they do. And women do not ALWAYS feel all emotionally invested when they have sex, either. So it comes down to being self-aware, honest to yourself and others, honoring your own needs, and not misleading anyone else.
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Old 08-28-2019, 08:25 AM
 
13,226 posts, read 10,175,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisTown123 View Post
We are in flux between women that HATE This with a passion and women that still try to win Biker Babe Bikini competitions, "Sponsored by Hooters".
We are not IN FLUX between anything. We are different PEOPLE with different VIEWS. This is my single biggest RED FLAG in dating. If you think WOMEN are a singular thing, I RUN.
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Old 08-28-2019, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Colorado
12,340 posts, read 7,542,169 times
Reputation: 22180
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisTown123 View Post
We are in flux between women that HATE This with a passion and women that still try to win Biker Babe Bikini competitions, "Sponsored by Hooters". There's this over 50 lady I know that's a body builder/model, but tends to oversexualize herself, dental floss bikinis and such.... but yet I saw her on the Match site. She's on Instagram a lot, takes pics of her boobs/body (neck down, no head). She admitted in a YouTube interview she just loves attention.

So...I guess money has been replaced with simple Instagram attention.

You can tell a woman is overtly sexualizing herself if she aims the camera at her boobs, stomach, all the way down. I see this in dating profiles of women at the beach, where they are laying back, camera pointed from their boobs to their feet, with the ocean in the scene. Then they have, "If you're looking for a one-night stand, don't bother!"

Yet she puts in caps, "I'm not looking for a one-night stand! So if you're just trying to get in my pants, don't even think about it" yet, she has these Brazilian style bikinis in her dating profile....all the while whatever thirsty men are looking at the computer screen have a pup-tent in their pants.

Then they complain they get emails from "pervs".

Sure, I've heard women complain about OLD perves when they have tasteful attire, but the aforementioned descriptions seems to reinforce it and doesn't help their cause. Some people can just be walking contradictions.
It's not a contradiction if you even vaguely can comprehend that a woman is not a static object that is going to be the same at all times, she is a PERSON. So the man you are at work, as you interact with your boss, that is precisely how you are at all times, with all people? You are not able to behave differently in different contexts? You interact with everyone precisely the same? No. Of course you do not.

You are trying to say that if a woman sexualizes herself over here in this bikini competition or that Hooters, then how could she expect any man to love and respect her, over there in a shared home? She IS nothing but a body, because she sometimes shows her body.

Right. And I am your Mother because I am somebody's Mother. I must be nothing but that ever, to anyone.

No wait. I'm your Data Analyst. I do this for a living, it must be all I am capable of ever.

No?

*attempts to hand you a flogger*

No?

Wait!! I'm an ex wife. Do all men owe me child support at all times?

I mean it really makes about that much sense. You really seem to be trying to make some point that if some women like to be validated for beautiful or sexual looks, then a.) They should never expect to be treated any different way in any other context of their lives, and b.) How dare other women complain or not want to be treated that way, after all, are not all women a Hive Mind?
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Old 08-28-2019, 08:36 AM
 
2,205 posts, read 612,009 times
Reputation: 1468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
Yes, some women this, and not all men that. Do you not get that I pretty much always talk about how these things aren't universal? Not all women want to wait to have sex, either. But the ones who care about more than what's on the surface often do.

And if a woman is looking for a RELATIONSHIP, then while there might be certain appearance-based things that may be deal breakers for her, I'd lay my money on her having a need to get to know a guy and WHO he is beyond what is skin deep. Meeting one's requirements in the looks department is only the first hurdle. I mean, for me, gross nasty black and brown teeth are a dealbreaker. A funky body odor is a dealbreaker. Superficial qualities might eliminate a lot of men I don't want to date, but nice teeth and nice smell alone won't get me hooked, either.
Wouldn't hygiene be pretty much a deal breaker for most everyone, except the homeless? lol Your standards go without saying pretty much. I've yet to see a profile of a woman that says, "He must wear deodorant, shower, wash his skid-marked underwear and not wear it a full week, not partake in bodily functions in my presence, and brush his teeth".

However, height requirements run amock, even if the lady is short. I noticed you don't have a height requirement or a "full head of hair" requirement.

But the hygiene part, it pretty much goes with out saying and really is rarely mentioned.
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Old 08-28-2019, 08:39 AM
 
2,205 posts, read 612,009 times
Reputation: 1468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
It's not a contradiction if you even vaguely can comprehend that a woman is not a static object that is going to be the same at all times, she is a PERSON. So the man you are at work, as you interact with your boss, that is precisely how you are at all times, with all people? You are not able to behave differently in different contexts? You interact with everyone precisely the same? No. Of course you do not.

You are trying to say that if a woman sexualizes herself over here in this bikini competition or that Hooters, then how could she expect any man to love and respect her, over there in a shared home? She IS nothing but a body, because she sometimes shows her body.

Right. And I am your Mother because I am somebody's Mother. I must be nothing but that ever, to anyone.

No wait. I'm your Data Analyst. I do this for a living, it must be all I am capable of ever.

No?

*attempts to hand you a flogger*

No?

Wait!! I'm an ex wife. Do all men owe me child support at all times?

I mean it really makes about that much sense. You really seem to be trying to make some point that if some women like to be validated for beautiful or sexual looks, then a.) They should never expect to be treated any different way in any other context of their lives, and b.) How dare other women complain or not want to be treated that way, after all, are not all women a Hive Mind?
Whatever man, you're not getting me. You very well know that I know that "all women are different' and are not a 'hive mind". I am trying to make a point of why people do what they do? I'm just putting it out there an understanding why people act the way that they do.
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Old 08-28-2019, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Colorado
12,340 posts, read 7,542,169 times
Reputation: 22180
On a completely different note here...

This subject actually reminds me of a conversation I have had with my younger son.

He was in a troubled relationship with a troubled girl, nearly a year ago. He fell hard and fast for her. Of course, she was his first and all. Even when things had been crazy and bad, he still came back from an instance where she had been good to him (she was all over the place with how she treated him) and talked about plans for a future together. I kept telling him it was not going to last. And it didn't.

But at one point he said that he thought he might be "more like a girl" because after they'd been fighting and she had made him feel terrible, he did not want to have sex with her. He just was not in the mood for it. And she got angry and accused him of not finding her attractive and cried and carried on. The ONLY reason she could think of, that he wouldn't want to get it on, is "I'm not pretty." He said that maybe other guys could just turn off their feelings and get down to business, but he had no desire to do so.

I told him then, that if he's going to get so attached to a girl he is intimate with, he really ought to take his time to get there, and get to know her, so that he doesn't get mixed up with any more psychos. (I don't say such things lightly--she really was...something.)

I have known men before, too, who knew that for them, sex was not just some trivial, casual thing, and who wanted to wait before jumping into bed with someone. Who wanted it to mean something. Again, know thyself and to thyself be true.
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Old 08-28-2019, 08:51 AM
 
3,920 posts, read 1,818,310 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisTown123 View Post
We are in flux between women that HATE This with a passion and women that still try to win Biker Babe Bikini competitions, "Sponsored by Hooters". There's this over 50 lady I know that's a body builder/model, but tends to oversexualize herself, dental floss bikinis and such.... but yet I saw her on the Match site. She's on Instagram a lot, takes pics of her boobs/body (neck down, no head). She admitted in a YouTube interview she just loves attention.

So...I guess money has been replaced with simple Instagram attention.

You can tell a woman is overtly sexualizing herself if she aims the camera at her boobs, stomach, all the way down. I see this in dating profiles of women at the beach, where they are laying back, camera pointed from their boobs to their feet, with the ocean in the scene. Then they have, "If you're looking for a one-night stand, don't bother!"

Yet she puts in caps, "I'm not looking for a one-night stand! So if you're just trying to get in my pants, don't even think about it" yet, she has these Brazilian style bikinis in her dating profile....all the while whatever thirsty men are looking at the computer screen have a pup-tent in their pants.

Then they complain they get emails from "pervs".

Sure, I've heard women complain about OLD perves when they have tasteful attire, but the aforementioned descriptions seems to reinforce it and doesn't help their cause. Some people can just be walking contradictions.
Men and women can choose to be overtly sexual. In the moment a male stripper is performing, his humanity isn't exactly what the women in the room are appreciating, just like a woman stripper isn't appreciated for her mind or business acumen.

The difference is, the man can turn that off in most cases. Let's say both in the above examples are the cliched college students working part time jobs as strippers. A great looking guy may be a bit of a distraction in class, but he has a better chance to be taken seriously for his opinion that the cause of the civil war was more the broad economics of slavery than it was a moral issue than has the woman co-worker and classmate when she espouses the same opinion in class. It's harder for her to not be an object. She has less choice in the matter.
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