Trapped by a woman who is pregnant? (dating, hubby, kiss)

[lionking]

Originally Posted by NWPAguy

I'm going to try to respond to this in as civil a manner as possible. This topic has always gotten under my skin really seriously whenever I've discussed it with people.

The truth is that people should not be having sex if they're not married. If people would follow the rules and stay celibate before marriage, they wouldn't have to be wondering whether or not to "stay with the baby's other parent" or whatever. They're married. OF COURSE they're going to stay together. When a man has sex with a woman, BABIES CAN HAPPEN... and both people need to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions if there are consequences.

To answer your question, a man cannot adequately take care of his child if he is not a permanent and constant fixture in the child's life. As I was growing up, my parents were married but my dad worked two jobs... sometimes 80 hours per week. He was there, at home, every single day... but yet we still missed out on almost 13 years of him actually being able to be much of a dad. His work schedule didn't allow him to be with my brother and I as much as we would've liked.

Your friend should stay with the girl, and marry her. Apparently he liked her enough to have a one-night stand with her, and that means that there had to be SOMETHING between them... even if it's physical affection. Your friend is NOT insane... he is doing the responsible thing, which anyone in his position should do. Children who grow up in broken families, or "two household" families, usually develop more deviant tendencies than children brought up in stable one-household family situations.

As for the two of them falling in love eventually... it could happen. It happens all the time in other cultures after the marriages were "arranged". It could happen to your friend too. I think he realized that he did something for which he must now take responsibility... and that is the most admirable response to the situation that I could think of.

yes in a perfect world Johnny marries his hometown sweetheart.He goes to work comes home where his wife is "hi honey,your meal is ready".The kids are out playing with the doll or cowboys and indian.They make perfect grades in school and you are the envy of everybody with the nice family with the house with the white picket fence.

In reality people marry and after years of marriage end in divorce or stay together for the kids or financial reasons but hate each other and are miserable.

In the real world some people don't find love (been 16 years for me since I loved somebody).Think I could do without sex for 16 years?I'd be a miserable sexually frustrated guy.But I do have or known women I care about but it isn't love and I'm not marrying them.

Now if a kid is involved people need to take responsibility to care for it,together or not.Personally I was adopted,I'm greatful for that.

And guess what,no matter what decade it was or is people had sex outside of marriage.Think about how many babies were left in Germany,Vietnam,Korea when Johnny came home to his nice family only to find out Mary had a affair on him while he was away.

Dear John.............

[Rance]

Originally Posted by NWPAguy

This goes out to all of you who were SO BOTHERED by my posts which represent, apparently, being on a "moral horse".

What does that put you on... an "amoral horse"? So many people like to gripe whenever someone DARES to speak about morality... but the fact that American society has, since the 1950s (according to msjack, the original poster), degraded from a morally conscious society to an amoral society is one of the reasons why America is on that railroad to hell that was mentioned earlier on. Okay, so that may be a bit of an exaggeration, but let's face it... we take God out of everything... the schools, the government, whatever... and then we wonder why our country is going down the toilet a little more every day. At the very least, I'm going to maintain my freedom of speech for as long as I can before that gets taken away by our government also... and my opinion is just as valid as the opinions of people who choose not to follow a strict moral code.

Have y'all seen those bumper stickers that say "If you're living like there is no God, YOU'D BETTER BE RIGHT!" against a background of flames? I'm not willing to bet my eternity on an amoral life. Eternity is a long time. I'd rather suffer whatever I'd have to suffer in order to live a proper, Godly, moral life for 100 years or so than to burn in the flames of hell for hundreds, thousands, even millions of years. Eternity is a LONG TIME. So... I'll hedge my bets and you hedge yours. The worst that could happen to me, if for whatever reason my religious beliefs were "wrong" and the amorally-inclined people are "right", is that there's nothing after death... I wind up ceasing to exist completely after I die... which is the same fate that shall befall everyone else after they die. In that case I'm really no worse off than they are... because at least I tried to live a really good life for the 100 years that I had on Earth, and my after-death fate was no worse than anyone else's. If I am right, however, there's a reward after death for those who tried to stay on the right track... and a punishment for those who ignored the right track.

I never liked punishment. I still don't like it. Therefore, I'm going to play by the rules. Y'all who are talking about how I'm on a moral high horse and make that seem like a bad thing... you'd better be right... especially since you, like almost all Americans, probably dislike EXTREMELY HOT WEATHER.

It all started with Adam and Eve. They had sex...yet no preacher married them before they started kickin out kids.
NWPAguy you remind me totally of the lady in the movie "The Mist". She really stood up for what she believed in. If you haven't seen the movie please watch it. You can't miss her.

[NWPAguy]

Originally Posted by Rance

It all started with Adam and Eve. They had sex...yet no preacher married them before they started kickin out kids.
NWPAguy you remind me totally of the lady in the movie "The Mist". She really stood up for what she believed in. If you haven't seen the movie please watch it. You can't miss her.

Rance, the reason why they weren't married by a preacher before having sex and kicking out kids was because there was no preacher around to marry them. If there had been, they wouldn't have been the first humans, right?

Adam and Eve were basically "ordained" to be married by God Himself. Since you started it by mentioning Adam and Eve, I decided to whip out my Bible and catch a few verses which show that they were husband and wife. I'm using the Good News version, as that's the only one within reach right now.

Genesis 3:6, final two sentences: "So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, and he also ate it."

Genesis 3:16- "And [God] said to the woman, 'I will increase your trouble in pregnancy and your pain in giving birth. In spite of this, you will still have desire for your husband, yet you will be subject to him.' "

Genesis 3:17, first part: "And [God] said to the man, 'You listened to your wife and ate the fruit which I told you not to eat.' "

Genesis 3:20-21: "Adam named his wife Eve, because she was the mother of all human beings. And the Lord God made clothes out of animal skins for Adam and his wife, and he clothed them."

I actually did some research on marriage when I was a freshman in college and discovered that the "wedding ceremony" as we know it today really didn't start forming until the 15th century. Ultimately, I believe that marriage is not a ceremony... nor is a ceremony a marriage. A ceremony is a party... a celebration, and we love parties and celebration, don't we? (I especially do, since I'm a DJ and entertainer... no parties means no gigs for me! ) Marriage is a state of mind... a commitment to stay together until death do you part. If that commitment is iron-clad, who needs a ceremony to cement it? The argument could be made that the ceremony is meant to raise the stakes... as in, "200 people just watched you two get married and now you have to stay married for yourselves AND for them... they'll help you stay together if you ask, but they will all be disappointed if you get divorced". Whatever makes you happy.

As for that movie you mentioned... maybe I'll have to check it out. I've never even heard of it... but that doesn't say much... I've always said that I am culturally retarded.

[NWPAguy]

LionKing, you make some valid points but some of what you're saying isn't necessarily true.

Originally Posted by lionking

yes in a perfect world Johnny marries his hometown sweetheart.He goes to work comes home where his wife is "hi honey,your meal is ready".The kids are out playing with the doll or cowboys and indian.They make perfect grades in school and you are the envy of everybody with the nice family with the house with the white picket fence.

What you just described is sort of the "Leave It To Beaver" idea of a family and life... and honestly, what's wrong with that? If they both want a setup where the husband works and the wife is a homemaker, let 'em have it. The reason why such people are the envy of others is because they're able to make everything work... not because it's always easy to have that scenario you described. In life, not everything is easy... I say that character is built when you endure hardship.

Originally Posted by lionking

In reality people marry and after years of marriage end in divorce or stay together for the kids or financial reasons but hate each other and are miserable.

You basically just described my parents. I know this happens an awful lot... but that doesn't make it "right", "good", or "inevitable". I, for one, am going to try really hard to avoid that outcome... even though I seem genetically at risk for it (my family is fraught with failed marriages and has been for two generations before me). This is one of the reasons why I didn't get married until age 27.

The truth is that what you described is NOT inevitable. I just recently read an obituary article on Eddy Arnold, the country singer. He died just shy of 90 years old... and the writer concluded that he basically died of a broken heart. His wife of 66 years had just died a couple of months before... that would explain it. Eddy Arnold is considered the most successful country singer who ever lived... an entertainment mega-star in his day, and a legend afterwards. How many entertainment mega-stars get married in their early 20s and stay married to the same person throughout their lives... remaining happy enough to feel "brokenhearted" when their spouse dies in her 80s after 66 years of marriage? Look at a guy like Garth Brooks... probably the biggest country act of the modern era... he left his wife of almost 20 years for Trisha Yearwood... not long after telling the world that he loved his wife and would never leave her. The problem is not people... the problem is that society's values have degraded and we've come to value hedonism over morals and decency. I should do some research into how happy married people were in the 50s, compared to how happy married people are right now. Sometimes, you can make your own happiness... and that's often what you have to do.

Originally Posted by lionking

In the real world some people don't find love (been 16 years for me since I loved somebody).Think I could do without sex for 16 years?

I started wanting sex when I was 13. I got married at 27. Do the math. Not only is that nearly 14 years of wanting sex and abstaining from it... but those 14 years cover what physiologists claim are the best and strongest years for a man's sexual drives. They say it peaks around age 18, right? I can promise you that it wasn't easy abstaining for that long. But let's face it... there ARE ways to relieve built-up sexual tension without actually having sex. I sure as heck know that it'd be a feat of Herculean proportions for a man to go 16 years, especially 16 YOUNGER years, without having an orgasm.

Originally Posted by lionking

I'd be a miserable sexually frustrated guy.But I do have or known women I care about but it isn't love and I'm not marrying them.

Hopefully you're not inferring that you had sex with these women. Women will often give sex to get love... because some women feel that that is the only way they can get a man to want to stay with them. It may not have been love for you... but it may very well have been love, or the hope of finding love, for the women. You have to watch out for women's feelings too.

Originally Posted by lionking

Now if a kid is involved people need to take responsibility to care for it,together or not.Personally I was adopted,I'm greatful for that.

If that's the most responsible way for the parents to see to it that their child is cared for, great. Heaven knows, it's infinitely preferable to the abomination of abortion. I've known people who were adopted in a situation where the adoption was arranged, and the adoptive parents chosen, before the child was even born... hey, more power to 'em. Some parents want kids but can't conceive, or are too afraid to conceive. They HAVE to adopt.

Originally Posted by lionking

And guess what,no matter what decade it was or is people had sex outside of marriage.Think about how many babies were left in Germany,Vietnam,Korea when Johnny came home to his nice family only to find out Mary had a affair on him while he was away.

Dear John.............

I understand... but that doesn't make the described scenario "right". Yeah, it happens... but it shouldn't. The world would be a better place if people would not screw around when they're not married... exercise much care and caution choosing their spouse... and remain dedicated to upholding their marriage once they are married.

[NWPAguy]

Originally Posted by miu

Well I am absolutely certain that there isn't a heaven or a hell, so I'm just living this life the best way I can. And if there was a god, I'm also very certain that that god wouldn't be a petty judgmental one like yours. He certainly wouldn't care about when or when I had sex or with whom. As to going forth to multiply, this planet would be a lot better off with at least half the humans vacating it now. Especially with the way we all love our cars and the amount of garbage we create daily.

I do however believe in maintaining a good karma and not doing anything bad to others.

Miu, if you believe in "karma", then you believe in something higher than yourself. Lots of us call that something "God".

As far as God being petty and judgmental, I have always found it funny when people thump their tubs against "being judged". The reason for this is because, with extremely rare exception, the people who spew stuff like "don't judge me", or "you have no right to judge", are the people who choose to engage in empirically immoral behaviors and lives.

Nobody really LIKES to be judged negatively no matter who they are or what they do... but the truth is that sometimes you need negative judgment in order to make improvement. You need to get a D on a test in order to know that you have to study harder in that class. (That's happened to me.) You need to get a speeding ticket in order to know that you cannot get away with driving 90 in a 65 zone... and also that doing so is often unsafe. (I've done it, and never gotten a ticket. I've gone 105 and haven't gotten a ticket. That doesn't make it "right", nor necessarily "safe".) You need to get reprimanded by your boss in order to know that you aren't working up to snuff. (I'm sure we've all gotten that at one time or another.)

That being said, I and most other people who try their hardest to live a decent, morally upstanding life will say "BRING ON THE JUDGMENT!". I don't mind being judged... as a matter of fact, I invite it. Let people judge me. Furthermore, let them judge me on the same scale I use to judge others. I expect nothing less. I try to live my life such that their judgments will yield a conclusion that I am a darn good person... but if they don't, I want to know why. I am trying to make this world a better place and if I am doing something categorically "bad", I want someone to say something about it and usually I will understand. (For example... when I'm driving and I'm in a hurry, sometimes I will nail the gas and pull out in front of someone if I have reason to suspect that that person is not likely to drive fast... such as if the vehicle is a Buick. There have been times when doing so has gotten me beeped at, and surely it irritated the other driver behind me. I can't argue with that. If I were the "other driver", I'd have leaned on the horn too.)

If there is no standard upon which people and their actions can and will be judged, then there is no way to determine "right" vs. "wrong", or "good" vs. "bad". I often use the example of murder. Why is murder bad? Because it kills a person? Well, why is killing a person bad? If that person is a loser, isn't the world better off without him? (At what point does this stream of questioning become asinine??) Abortion kills a person too, and a lot of people don't believe that abortion is bad! (I am a scientist... I know about cells and DNA and genetic codes and stuff... I believe that science shows how life begins at conception and I'm really not interested in starting a debate on that right now.) Why is stealing bad? Because it deprives someone of something that is rightfully theirs? Well, if the person taking the thing WANTS it, and has use for it, what makes it wrong for that person to have it... especially if its original possessor wasn't using it? (Again, how far can this go before becoming ridiculous?) Sex before marriage does the same thing in various ways to a person... but yet lots of people don't think it's bad!

The Ten Commandments are common to the Christian faith and the Jewish faith. I'm not sure if other faiths use them... but I'm sure that most people are familiar with a few of the "Thou shalt nots" from the Ten Commandments. On top of that, most people, religious and not religious, would agree that most (if not all) practices decried in the "Thou shalt nots" are bad/wrong. It all comes down to "why"... and people without religion cannot possibly come up with any other answer to that question of "why" beyond "because I personally do not believe that it is right". Well, saying that makes you God. If your standard is above the standards of all other people, or at least equal thereto, then you're saying that you are God.

Miu, if you think that "karma" is real, and that maintaining good karma entails doing nothing bad to other people, whose standard of "bad" do you use? If we all used only our own standards, what's "bad" for one might not be "bad" for another. You could do something to someone, thinking it's not bad, and the recipient of your action could think it was abominable. The reasoning always falls apart. There has to be one overarching standard... one TRUE definition of right vs. wrong and good vs. bad.... or else everything will inevitably deteriorate into chaos. We're practically watching that happen right now. I know it'd be darn near impossible to convince you, or anyone else who doesn't believe in the existence of heaven or hell, that those two places actually do exist and that there is a God. Therefore, I'm not going to try. However, I think that the reason why the original poster started this thread is a microcosm of what we're talking about right here. It's a matter of right vs. wrong... and there's only a debate because lots of people have their own ideas of what is right and what is wrong. These debates would extend to everything. Without one standard, total chaos eventually takes hold... and that's true of everything. (For example, can you imagine if, in America, we were allowed to pay for goods and services using currency from any country? What about currency from the country of ME, that I printed on my computer? If there were not one standard currency in this country, our economy would cease to exist. Can you imagine what would happen if there were not a standard for the quality of gasoline sold at American gas stations? How many cars would blow up, break down, not start, etc? We get into an uproar when one gas station sells "bad gas" by accident... well, what determines "bad gas"? Why aren't engines designed to run on "bad gas" rather than "good gas"? We need one standard.)

I'm betting my life and my eternity on one standard. People who choose to do everything their way.... had better be right.

[Rance]

So there it is. A man and woman "can" be married in the eyes of God...and themselves...without some big wedding celebration or ceremony (which was started in the 15th century) just like Adam and Eve! So if two people decide to commit to each other...there should be no reason why they can't have sex...and have children...and still be seen as favorable in the eyes of God, each other, and in the community!

Which is exactly what the 2 parties involved in this thread have done. They've commited to each other, had sex, are having a child, and basically should be ok, as far as God is concerned (which is the important thing). And to make a long story short...these two should not be judged by you or I. Thanks for varifying my belief NWPAguy.

[NWPAguy]

Originally Posted by Rance

So there it is. A man and woman "can" be married in the eyes of God...and themselves...without some big wedding celebration or ceremony (which was started in the 15th century) just like Adam and Eve! So if two people decide to commit to each other...there should be no reason why they can't have sex...and have children...and still be seen as favorable in the eyes of God, each other, and in the community!

Which is exactly what the 2 parties involved in this thread have done. They've commited to each other, had sex, are having a child, and basically should be ok, as far as God is concerned (which is the important thing). And to make a long story short...these two should not be judged by you or I. Thanks for varifying my belief NWPAguy.

Rance, you may have missed the point. Apparently, at the time they had sex, they were not committed to each other for life until death do they part... through thick and thin, for richer or poorer, etc. If two people decide to commit to each other for the rest of their natural lives, forsaking all others, there's no reason why they can't have sex and have children. (If they WERE committed to each other, there'd be no question at all in either of their minds what they would do and this thread wouldn't have even been started.)

The two parties involved in this thread DID NOT have that kind of commitment... and I wasn't judging them... I was talking about what they should do. They should make that commitment now.

[Fat Freddy]

Originally Posted by NWPAguy

...if you believe in "karma", then you believe in something higher than yourself. Lots of us call that something "God"...

Some of us think of it a deeper understanding of Newton's Third Law of Motion which states:

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

[Rance]

Well she obviously had that in mind when she "trapped" this guy. And he obviously has that in mind or he would not be moving back to be with her and child. Who knows what was said as they lay there in each others arms and decided to have sex. Only they and God know. It's really nobody elses business and we should not judge either way.

[NWPAguy]

Originally Posted by Rance

Well she obviously had that in mind when she "trapped" this guy. And he obviously has that in mind or he would not be moving back to be with her and child. Who knows what was said as they lay there in each others arms and decided to have sex. Only they and God know. It's really nobody elses business and we should not judge either way.

I certainly hope you're right. Heaven knows, you very well could be... and that would just back up my initial point of how the guy who is moving back to be with the woman who is soon to be the mother of his child is doing the right thing. He may be many things, but "insane" is not one of them. I would definitely wish the two of them the best of luck and all of God's blessings.

I've always believed that the best judge of a person's character is not so much how often he/she makes a mistake as it is how he/she reacts to the mistake in the aftermath... and maybe neither of them even thought it was a mistake. He's definitely doing the right thing.