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Directed at Mari4Him's last post: If this is your logic, you should also take out the 2 hours plus during the day that the child is napping, since quality time cannot happen while the child is sleeping. Also, what is the equation if the child goes to daycare from 10 am until 5 pm only 3 days a week.
The time breakdown is not my logic. I was simply responding based on the quesiton of how the math added up. My logic was spoken at the end of the post which states it is not about the quantity of time spent but the quality of time spent. And if you read my post beforehand, you would understand that as I said I could not even answer in the poll because I didn't feel any of the options were appropriate as each family situation is different. I don't think there is a clear cut answer on that.
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Originally Posted by dksun
Not directed at any specific post, just the anti working mother posts in general: AND, I am not saying that ALL stay at home moms do this so please do not butcher me for this, but MANY stay at home mothers do not spend much quality time with their children either. They watch their soap operas and let their children smear their poop all over their walls. If we are going to disrespect one type of mother, might as well make it equal.
Personally, I am not against working mom's at all. I fully understand that some need to, or even choose to, work outside the home and yet are terrific mothers and very active in the raising of their children. By the same token, I totally agree that there are SAHM's that waste their day away while children merely entertain/raise themselves.
Again, it is why my view is that it is not based on quantity of time, but rather the quality of that time, that matters.
We only get charged $1 per minute, but I am always at least 45 minutes early! I have heard of daycares charging $5.00 or more per minute.
I have never heard of a daycare that didn't make allowances though, like if you are in a car accident and CANNOT get there by the time they close, they will waive the fee.
I used to charge $5 for every minute past my 6 o'clock closing time b/c I had one set of parents who would always be late to pick up their two kids!! Even then, they would show up at 5:59 to pick them up. Sometimes the mom was out for the day and would still come drop them off early in the morning. One particular day she was late, she had the day and told me "Oh, I went home to take a nap and I overslept"!! She was 10 mins. late!! I had other things to do with my children too. It just broke my heart to see these two precious girls being cared for by others while the parents went off to the movies, dinner and drinks, etc.
Even after work, the mom would go dump them at the gym's daycare then take them home put them to bed and on weekends they would get a sitter to watch them while they entertained at home
Now they have another baby, and I run into them at the gym...yep, they drop them off at the daycare. They put them (all 3) in a daycare that's open till 6:30 p.m. I guess the less time they spend with them the better.
Those are the parents I felt frustrated with. Poor kids!
The time breakdown is not my logic. I was simply responding based on the quesiton of how the math added up. My logic was spoken at the end of the post which states it is not about the quantity of time spent but the quality of time spent. And if you read my post beforehand, you would understand that as I said I could not even answer in the poll because I didn't feel any of the options were appropriate as each family situation is different. I don't think there is a clear cut answer on that.
Personally, I am not against working mom's at all. I fully understand that some need to, or even choose to, work outside the home and yet are terrific mothers and very active in the raising of their children. By the same token, I totally agree that there are SAHM's that waste their day away while children merely entertain/raise themselves.
Again, it is why my view is that it is not based on quantity of time, but rather the quality of that time, that matters.
I'm glad! I usually really enjoy your posts and I was a little worried with that one!
I do know people both ways, both working mothers and non-working mothers who don't give their children the appropriate care.
When I found out I was pregnant with my son, I made the commitment to be totally dedicated to what was best for our family and for him. I believe that children are a life long committment and if you give them anything less they probably have a good reason to resent you for it.
I do not agree with giving your children all the material possessions they want or with spoiling your children, but you cannot put your dance classes, your bar hopping trips, even your job before the well-being of your children. If I had to choose between my job or my child I would choose my child in a heart-beat because I can always find another job, but I could never replace my child.
Everything my husband and I do is for the better of our marriage and the better of our children!
I was a very indepenent child when i was growing up. I practicly raised myself even though i lived with my mother i was basicly at home by myself all the time because she had a very demanding work schedule and was always out doing something with friends.
I wouldn't argue about nap time etc.....you want quality not quantity.
Make every moment count with your children..they can have the best of both worlds.
I agree. However, most parents do have quantity even if they work and the, usual, argument against us is that our kids spend "most" of their time in day care then they "prove" it by counting nap time for day care providers but not for parents.
Oh, I'm rolling on the floor. OIC, nap time at day care counts as time with the day care provider but sleep time at night at home doesn't count as time with the parents (at least you were consistent and gave the parents nap time on the weekend, lol)? Either reduce the hours in day care by nap time or give the parents credit for sleep time. It always cracks me up how people who want to show how daycares raise kids, creatively, include nap time in day care hours but, conveniently, deduct sleep time from the parents total.
So which is it? Does sleep time count or not?
No where did I say that I felt that daycares raise the children. In fact what I said is that it varies based on the family. So okay, I forgot to deduct nap time from the equation for daycare. My kids never went to daycare so I forgot that. But even still, I mentioned infants and children. That would include up to preschool I believe and I don't know but my kids quit taking naps by age 3-4, my husbands 4-5 year olds weren't taking naps a 3 either. But that is not the point anyways. I believe that even parents that have their children in daycare for however many hours can still be the ones raising their children. The mere decision of even which daycare to choose as being best for their well being is part of that action. So please do not assume I believe otherwise.
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
And then there's your 50+ hours a week. Where do you get that from? Certainly not the census data which has the total below 40 hours a week. You see, most babies have two parents who usually don't work the same shifts so the hours are less than 10 not 10+ (and here it's illegal to leave a preschooler in day care over 10 hours so 10 is the maximum)
No I didn't go check out the census for this post. I based my numbers on personal experience of what I seen around me. Most work 9-5 and so I added an hour travel/arrival time both ways. If 10 is the maximum where you live, obviously is because those establishing such laws factor in the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
You do go to extremes but even this extreme doesn't prove your point.
Not an extreme at all. Like I said, in my experience it is very common to hold 9-5 jobs. Though yes, some work only part time, many do in fact work full-time jobs in this day and age with the cost of living being what it is. Being able to work part-time only, or stay at home fully, is a luxury not many can afford to have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
You say the day care provider is raising the child if the child is in day care 50 hours a week. But baby sleeps 3 hours a day at day care reducing day care hours to 35. The parents still have the 15 hours per week in the evenings plus they have 20 on the weekend which means they are putting in just as much time as the day care provider. So how can you say the day care provider raises the child? If 35 hours a week is enough to raise a child for a day care provider, why isn't it enough for a parent?
Again, you are assuming much and reading more into what I wrote than what I did. Furthermore, you conviniently, to try to minimize what I said, left out the point I made about quality time versus quantity time. I never said that in all cases the daycare raises the child. I did however mention before that I feel there is no clear cut answer to this question as it is entirely based upon the family/parents and what they do with the time they have with their children. So again, please don't go assuming things.
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Here's the flaw in your logic, raising children is NOT a 50 hour a week, Monday-Friday job with weekends and holidays off that is done when they are 5. It is just plain stupid to even try to make that argument.
Whoever said I was making that argument. That is more your interjecting your opinion or interpretation to what I wrote. I never said it was that kind of job. To begin with I do not believe raising kids is a 9-5 job nor do I believe it ends at age 5. Shoot, my son is 19 years old and I believe that while I have done most of my job already, my job is far from over. I still have a job in continuing to be a positive and involved influence in his life. Especially as long as he either requires it, or seeks it. I'm 38 and my mother does not see her job over either. I believe a parent's job to be a parent continues all throughout life, until the day that parent dies and then their legacy, which hopefully they left behind continues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
There are 365 days in a year, 104 are weekends, most people have about 25 days off between vacations, holidays, personal days and sick days leaving 236 work days where baby spends part of their time in day care and part at home and 129 days where baby never goes to day care. There are no days where baby goes to day care but never goes home.
If the day care provider has 7 hours a day on work days with baby, parents have 3 on work days and 10 on non work days, the day care provider clocks 1652 hours per year and the parents 1998. Now riddle me this, how can the day care provider raise the child in 1652 hours per year but the parents don't have enough time to raise their own child in 1998 hours per year when the parents spend some time with the child all days while the day care provider takes 35% of the days off?"
You've proved to be very good with a calculator. Too bad the effort put into that is really mute as I never ever stated that it is my opinion that in all cases the daycare is raising the child. Once again, you assume far too much from what I wrote and obviously choose to disregard the key element that I stated. Quality versus Quantity in ANY given situation. Should we now also break down the time and numbers based on divorcee's and figure out which parent spends more time raising a child than the other when there are shared custody arrangments. Come on now..... Even a father that only see's his children every other weekend can be highly involved in raising their child so long as they are involved in that process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Sorry, your math doesn't add up. Especially since you've chosen 10 hours a day which is very uncommon. You've based your whole argument on the rare case of 10 hours a day in day care but it still doesn't hold up. You see, raising childre isn't a 10 hour a day, Monday-Friday job with weekends, holidays, sick days, personal days and vacations off that is done when the child starts school. That's a description of a day care provider not a parent. I've shown that even using your extreme parents still clock more hours than day care providers but parents keep going after the day care provider has moved on to the next child. They keep going for over 3 times the 5 years preschoolers are in day care.
I wasn't making an argument. If I were to have an argument in this situation it would simply be that "The quality of time a parent spends with their children raising and educating their children can be far more important in the long run than the quantity of time they have available". Want to try to argue that point, cause that is the point I was making overall. I simply did the math on a week basis because that is what you were questioning with regards to how that math added up. Didn't realize you wanted the whole year breakdown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Next you'll try to tell me schools raise our kids because kids are in school more hours than with parents.
In some cases, yeah they do. Again, NOT ALL. Just SOME. Ask any teacher and they can tell you if they have students that this isn't true with. You can not tell me that you don't believe that in this society there are parents that fail miserably at raising their children and expect the daycares, schools, churches, other family members, neighbors, legal system, society in general, etc to do the job for them. It does exist.
Personally, I raise my own kids and appreciate and have total respect for other parents who do the same, whether or not they are stay at home parents, part-time workers, or full time workers.
We have a nanny in OUR HOUSE, and a grandma, and each go by our rules
So who's raising the kids?
I still think parents do. Even if they're with the nanny more than you. After all, parents pick the nanny and set the rules. I assume most parents are like me and pick a day care provider who shares some of their values so there's reinforcement of what is learned in one home to the other.
No where did I say that I felt that daycares raise the children. In fact what I said is that it varies based on the family. So okay, I forgot to deduct nap time from the equation for daycare. My kids never went to daycare so I forgot that. But even still, I mentioned infants and children. That would include up to preschool I believe and I don't know but my kids quit taking naps by age 3-4, my husbands 4-5 year olds weren't taking naps a 3 either. But that is not the point anyways. I believe that even parents that have their children in daycare for however many hours can still be the ones raising their children. The mere decision of even which daycare to choose as being best for their well being is part of that action. So please do not assume I believe otherwise.
No I didn't go check out the census for this post. I based my numbers on personal experience of what I seen around me. Most work 9-5 and so I added an hour travel/arrival time both ways. If 10 is the maximum where you live, obviously is because those establishing such laws factor in the same thing.
Not an extreme at all. Like I said, in my experience it is very common to hold 9-5 jobs. Though yes, some work only part time, many do in fact work full-time jobs in this day and age with the cost of living being what it is. Being able to work part-time only, or stay at home fully, is a luxury not many can afford to have.
Again, you are assuming much and reading more into what I wrote than what I did. Furthermore, you conviniently, to try to minimize what I said, left out the point I made about quality time versus quantity time. I never said that in all cases the daycare raises the child. I did however mention before that I feel there is no clear cut answer to this question as it is entirely based upon the family/parents and what they do with the time they have with their children. So again, please don't go assuming things.
Whoever said I was making that argument. That is more your interjecting your opinion or interpretation to what I wrote. I never said it was that kind of job. To begin with I do not believe raising kids is a 9-5 job nor do I believe it ends at age 5. Shoot, my son is 19 years old and I believe that while I have done most of my job already, my job is far from over. I still have a job in continuing to be a positive and involved influence in his life. Especially as long as he either requires it, or seeks it. I'm 38 and my mother does not see her job over either. I believe a parent's job to be a parent continues all throughout life, until the day that parent dies and then their legacy, which hopefully they left behind continues.
You've proved to be very good with a calculator. Too bad the effort put into that is really mute as I never ever stated that it is my opinion that in all cases the daycare is raising the child. Once again, you assume far too much from what I wrote and obviously choose to disregard the key element that I stated. Quality versus Quantity in ANY given situation. Should we now also break down the time and numbers based on divorcee's and figure out which parent spends more time raising a child than the other when there are shared custody arrangments. Come on now..... Even a father that only see's his children every other weekend can be highly involved in raising their child so long as they are involved in that process.
I wasn't making an argument. If I were to have an argument in this situation it would simply be that "The quality of time a parent spends with their children raising and educating their children can be far more important in the long run than the quantity of time they have available". Want to try to argue that point, cause that is the point I was making overall. I simply did the math on a week basis because that is what you were questioning with regards to how that math added up. Didn't realize you wanted the whole year breakdown.
In some cases, yeah they do. Again, NOT ALL. Just SOME. Ask any teacher and they can tell you if they have students that this isn't true with. You can not tell me that you don't believe that in this society there are parents that fail miserably at raising their children and expect the daycares, schools, churches, other family members, neighbors, legal system, society in general, etc to do the job for them. It does exist.
Personally, I raise my own kids and appreciate and have total respect for other parents who do the same, whether or not they are stay at home parents, part-time workers, or full time workers.
OMG, teachers raise kids??? Now we've reduced raising a child to 7 hours a day, 180 days for one year . Sorry, if I won't buy a day care provider who has children much longer for many more days per year and for more years raising a child, what makes you think I'll buy a particular teacher they happened to have for one year?
While many people help raise our children, it's still parents who raise them. Parents choose their day care providers, set the rules, choose their schools, where they'll live and are an active part of chidlren's lives WAY MORE than any day care provider or teacher ever could be. Long after my kids have forgotten their teachers names, I'll still be here.
Your math is way off. First you went with an extreme number of hours in day care. Why is that? Why choose 10+ hours a day when that would be very rare. Census data has the average, including part time day care, at 32 hours a week. If I assume half of the kids are part time going 24 hours a week, then the full time kids are attending an average of 40 hours a week. 50 will be a rare occurance, however, even if it were 50, parents still have more time to do quality things with their kids than day care providers.
The only way a day care provider raises children is if raising a child is a 50 hour a week, monday- friday job with weekends, holidays, sick days and vacations off that is done with the child is five and it is not on all counts.
Most people don't work 9-5. Most people work a shift different than bankers hours. The only way a couple needs day care an hour on each side of 9-5 is if both parents work 9-5. Most couples are like my husband and myself. Working staggered shifts. He works 9-5. I worked 7:00-3:30.
If you check out the census, you'll find your 10 hours a day would be a very rare occurance and that most people don't work 9-5. Still, your 10 hour days leave the parents clearly in the lead so you can't make an argument for day care providers raising children.
I always find this argument funny because when I started back to work, I was told my baby would be ignored in day care because the day care provider had too many kids to tend to and then they started telling me my day care provider was raising my daughter. Day care providers must be something else. They must have super child rearing powers to be able to, simultaneously, divided their time so thinly children are ignored BUT manage to raise them in less time than is possible for a parent, lol.
I didn't post to argue. I stated the way it is here.
In my case, I never said who raised the children. What I did say is that we work very hard (the parents and myself) for the common good of the children.
That is what it should be about.
Everyone is different and everyone's circumstances are different.
Please respect everyone's post and opinions.
There were no clear cut choices to your poll.
If one of the choices were parents and providers together then that would have been my answer.
I'm glad! I usually really enjoy your posts and I was a little worried with that one!
Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Martha
I do know people both ways, both working mothers and non-working mothers who don't give their children the appropriate care.
Exactly. Goes both ways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Martha
When I found out I was pregnant with my son, I made the commitment to be totally dedicated to what was best for our family and for him. I believe that children are a life long committment and if you give them anything less they probably have a good reason to resent you for it.
I do not agree with giving your children all the material possessions they want or with spoiling your children, but you cannot put your dance classes, your bar hopping trips, even your job before the well-being of your children. If I had to choose between my job or my child I would choose my child in a heart-beat because I can always find another job, but I could never replace my child.
Everything my husband and I do is for the better of our marriage and the better of our children!
It's funny that you mention that because I had a personal experience with that myself. When my son was first born, I did have to go to work for a short spell. During this time my son was suffering from chronic ear infections. This caused high fevers at times. When my son was 16 months old, he had a febrile seizure and was rushed to emergency by ambulance on a ventilator as he was not breathing. He had been in the emergency room almost all night before that happened with a high fever and they gave me fever reducer and some antibiotics and sent him home. Hours later his fever, while we were all sleeping, rose to 106.8 degrees. He spent 10 days in the hospital, of which I took all 10 days off of work to stay at his bedside each moment. I showered, ate, and slept in the hospital room.
Job was okay about this part. However, when he was released I was told very clearly that his fever could not go above 102 without the risk of another seizure as he was now prone to it and had to take special medication if his fever reached 102 to avoid brain damage in the event of another seizure. Well, with chronic ear infections fevers were a common thing. I'd sometimes be running about 15 minutes late to work because I had to ensure his fever was under control before dropping him off at the sitters.
One day my boss told me flat out that they didn't care what was going on with my son, what they cared about was that I was in the office by 8am. It was a law office and mind you, if I was even 5 minutes late my work did not suffer because I'd work through my lunch hour off the clock. My job was also non-effective to the production of the office as I was not a receptionist or anything but a billing/collections clerk.
Anyway, at that exact moment that my boss told me that I put in my 2 weeks notice saying "you may not care what is going on with my son but I do, see I can get another job, I can't replace my son". I was told I didn't need to complete the 2 weeks but got my severence pay and from that moment on my ex and I determined I would stay home. What I was earning was just not worth it when the kids needed me at home.
So yeah, I totally understand and agree with you. My kids will always come first. No room for negotiating that. Perhaps thats why I haven't pursued a career, I know what that could possibly entail.
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then take them home put them to bed and on weekends they would get a sitter to watch them while they entertained at home 
