MEN and WOMEN: Bachelor party or not?

[sierraAZ]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

In this case, the male-dancer side is often considerably busier than the other, but I suspect that's because that side is a little more unusual for this area.

I went to a Chippendales' show once and about 60-70% of the audience consisted of women over 60! These same ladies are regulars at the casinos around, too. Spirited sweethearts! The husbands play golf in the meantime.

[AuburnJack]

Originally Posted by NWPAguy

I have to take issue with this direct attack on someone who is actually taking a stand for morality on this forum rather than going with ultra-modern liberal views which will only get more and more liberal as time goes on if the train isn't derailed soon.

And I have to take issue, in turn, with the fact that I am not only being accused of personally attacking someone (I did no such thing), but with the accusation being followed by some ridiculous assumption about my political and ethical views (I don't believe I mentioned anything about either).

[AuburnJack]

Originally Posted by mari4him

That is absolutely what I am saying and yes with an absolute and confident straight face because it is true. Of course, you are going to assume, claim, and accuse that it can't be true and that I must be lying.

Not quite. I am going to say that you are exaggerating, however, and I know this for a fact because you later admitted as much. You stated that you haven't "gone blind" since getting married, right? You are aware of what that implies?

Originally Posted by mari4him

However, you don't know me, don't know the type of person I am or how seriously I take my values and commitments. Therefore, you can accuse and claim all you like. However, it doesn't change a thing, I am still who I am and what is true about me and my relationship remains true with or without your disbelief.

You're right, I don't know you, and I'm sure you are totally correct.

Originally Posted by mari4him

Believe it or not there are people in this world that can and do in fact remain loyal to their partners completely and totally... even in their thought life. I happen to be one of those. I firmly believe that in a relationship where both partners are in love and happy with each other, it is very plausible that this is the case.

Their "thought life?" Wow.

Originally Posted by mari4him

I also firmly believe that when the mind begins to wander to thoughts as the ones you have mentioned, it is a red flag to the person that something is wrong within the relationship.

...and this is where I step in and call shenanigans. I recognize that this a strongly held belief of yours, and I will counter with my own strongly held belief that you are entirely incorrect. Unless, of course, we are talking about two different things... as I mentioned before, you don't seem to be differentiating between a "whoa, s/he's hot" glance and a wolf whistle while poor wifey has to sit demurely and not say anything. I, on the other hand, have taken great pains to differentiate those two, and I am talking about the former. In context of the original question that we have strayed so far afield from, this describes the difference between going to a bachelor party at a strip club and spending every weekend there.

Originally Posted by mari4him

Something may be lacking which is causing this person to delve into the fantasy world rather than enjoy their reality. I happen to love my reality and that reality involves my husband, not other men.

Great. I love my reality too, which involves both a fierce devotion to my wife and a healthy fantasy life. I happen to believe that makes me no less morally or ethically solid than you, is all.

[mari4him]

Originally Posted by AuburnJack

Not quite. I am going to say that you are exaggerating, however, and I know this for a fact because you later admitted as much. You stated that you haven't "gone blind" since getting married, right? You are aware of what that implies?

You are absolutely wrong in that I am exaggerating, this is a fact. You are, however, absolutely right in that you I did state that neither I, nor my husband, have gone blind since getting married. However, as you have so clearly pointed out further down in your post, this discussion has strayed far beyond the initial post of just heading to a bachelor party or strip club and into actually having sexual fantasies about someone other than your SO. My response and subsequent posts have been clearly in response to this quote from you....

Originally Posted by AuburnJack

Those of you who are espousing this are absolutely stating, with a straight face, that you have never had a sexual thought about an attractive person you've seen or met after getting married? Not once? Not even for just a second, before dismissing it as a harmless fantasy? That you've never once entertained the notion of what this guy might be like in bed, or what you might have done with that guy back in your single days? Not one time?

I don't buy it. That sounds like exaggerating (if not downright lying) to prove a point or to assuage a fear, to me. And it speaks to the "all men are pigs" generalization much more than any biological justification, by equating fantasy with adultery.

You call me out as not being able to differentiate one thing from another, but I beg to differ, it is you that can not differentiate and understand what I am saying... I am not contradicting myself in saying that I have not gone blind. However, there is a HUGE difference between seeing a man and thinking he's attractive, and indulging in sexual fantasies revolving around this man and thinking the kind of things that you stated in the above quoted statement.

Originally Posted by AuburnJack

You're right, I don't know you, and I'm sure you are totally correct.

Great... we agree. Therefore do not assume that I am exaggerating or lying. First, neither is true. Secondly, by you're own admittance now, you don't know me at all to be able to make such claims.

Originally Posted by AuburnJack

Their "thought life?" Wow.

Yes, our thought life. Thoughts do have a way of taking on a life of their own.

Originally Posted by AuburnJack

...and this is where I step in and call shenanigans. I recognize that this a strongly held belief of yours, and I will counter with my own strongly held belief that you are entirely incorrect. Unless, of course, we are talking about two different things...

As to possibly be talking about two different things, read above. As to the bolded portion... just because you hold equally strong beliefs that are contrary than mine does not mean mine are entirely incorrect. The fact that we hold differing, yet very strong beliefs on the subject is one thing. I have disagreed with it, but have yet to accuse you of exagerrating or possibly even lying. Furthermore, I have also not stated that you are entirely incorrect. Your beliefs are yours, mine are mine and trust me, you are not going to convince me differently because I stand by and live by my beliefs, therefore know them to be true. Guess we can just agree to disagree, because you will never convince me that I have sexual fantasies about men other than my husband. You simply can't because that AuburnJack is entirely incorrect whether you believe it or not.

Originally Posted by AuburnJack

as I mentioned before, you don't seem to be differentiating between a "whoa, s/he's hot" glance and a wolf whistle while poor wifey has to sit demurely and not say anything. I, on the other hand, have taken great pains to differentiate those two, and I am talking about the former. In context of the original question that we have strayed so far afield from, this describes the difference between going to a bachelor party at a strip club and spending every weekend there.

You are wrong there again. I totally understand the difference between the two. I find the latter one to be far more disrespectful and inappropriate. However, even based on those two differing examples you gave, neither is really what you were speaking of when you stated "sexual fantasies", or... and I quote, "That you've never once entertained the notion of what this guy might be like in bed, or what you might have done with that guy back in your single days? Not one time?"

So based on your posts in response to mine.. who is it exactly that is having trouble differentiating between a simple glance, a finding someone attractive, and what I have pointed out above.

Originally Posted by AuburnJack

Great. I love my reality too, which involves both a fierce devotion to my wife and a healthy fantasy life. I happen to believe that makes me no less morally or ethically solid than you, is all.

And that is fine.. if it works for you and for your wife. However, I never called you less moral or ethical. I just simply said I personally take issue with such behavior, not you personally or how you choose to live your life, and find it morally and ethically inappropriate. It does not occur in my relationship with my husband and frankly wouldn't work for me... and I assure you.. it would not work for my husband either. His beliefs and his views are identical to mine in this regard. It was a major factor in determining our compatibility based on both of our previous experiences in life. He is as adament about it as I am.

[SifuPhil]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

Alcohol at the bars...? Er. Yes.

YOU know what I mean - the strip joint!

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by SifuPhil

YOU know what I mean - the strip joint!

Heh. Yes, alcohol is available.

[SifuPhil]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

Heh. Yes, alcohol is available.

Thanks.

See, I'm planning my 'round-the-country trip and can only stop in states that allow liquor with these clubs.

[AuburnJack]

Originally Posted by mari4him

You call me out as not being able to differentiate one thing from another, but I beg to differ, it is you that can not differentiate and understand what I am saying... I am not contradicting myself in saying that I have not gone blind. However, there is a HUGE difference between seeing a man and thinking he's attractive, and indulging in sexual fantasies revolving around this man and thinking the kind of things that you stated in the above quoted statement.

Okay, I think you and I actually agree on this point: it's okay to notice, acknowledge, and even appreciate attractive people who are not our spouses, but it's not okay to place too much emphasis or get too involved in that notice or acknowledgment.

Where we differ is what that last part means. In my opinion, there is not a "huge" difference between thinking someone is attractive and thinking about them in a sexual manner. It's the same biological mechanism at work. In my opinion, the thoughts are meaningless... it's the deeds that matter, as they have real-life consequences and define one's moral character.

That being said, I recognize and appreciate that you have a strong conviction about your "thought life," just as I have my own.

Originally Posted by mari4him

Guess we can just agree to disagree, because you will never convince me that I have sexual fantasies about men other than my husband. You simply can't because that AuburnJack is entirely incorrect whether you believe it or not.

Please read closer. That's not what I labeled incorrect at all. What I labeled incorrect was quoted directly from your post, and quite clearly at that: "when the mind begins to wander to thoughts as the ones you have mentioned, it is a red flag to the person that something is wrong within the relationship."

Stating it as your firmly held belief does not protect it from being called out as simplistic and, yes, incorrect. It *could* be a red flag, true, but again, if you are taking my post at its literal word value (which you have heretofore done), then you are equating a brief and idle sexual fantasy with an adulterous and systematic behavior. Since you are so quick to anger when I question the veracity of your pure thoughts, I think it only fair to get a little indignant at your assertion that there is something wrong with my relationship because I don't feel shameful about sexual fantasies. I assure you, we're doing just fine.

As for the rest.... maybe I am totally putting my foot in my mouth, and you truly have never had a single sexual thought about anyone but your husband since your wedding day. If so, kudos to you... he's a lucky man, and you are someone with extraordinary devotion and self-discipline. For the reasons I just reiterated above, though, I'll just go ahead and remain doubtful. That's definitely something we'll agree to disagree on.

Originally Posted by mari4him

And that is fine.. if it works for you and for your wife. However, I never called you less moral or ethical. I just simply said I personally take issue with such behavior, not you personally or how you choose to live your life, and find it morally and ethically inappropriate.

So, how exactly does that work?