MEN and WOMEN: Bachelor party or not? (older, family, children)

[NWPAguy]

Originally Posted by SifuPhil

That's called excessive control. It's NATURAL to respond biologically to a stimulating person - to deny that is to deny humanity. Your labels are keeping you from seeing the entire picture.

I believe that we all recognize that there does tend to be a knee-jerk biological reaction to a stimulating person. Nobody has been denying that. The "impure" thoughts are what goes beyond that reaction.

And by the way, let's talk about "pure" for a second. You think "pure" is subjective? Let's not play Bill Clinton with our definition of words here. Pure is "without contamination". Pure water has zero contaminants. Pure gasoline has zero contaminants and zero ethanol.

Originally Posted by SifuPhil

The "whole environment"? How many times have you been in a strip club?

Avoiding temptations is cowardice, plain and simple. If you are indeed so strong, you should fear NOTHING. Anything else is extemporizing...

If avoiding temptations is cowardice, then the cowards are the smart ones because avoiding temptations is also indicative of intelligence. Being "brave" often equates with being "dumb"... have you ever heard that old song "Billy, Don't Be A Hero"?

[mari4him]

Originally Posted by SifuPhil

That's called excessive control. It's NATURAL to respond biologically to a stimulating person - to deny that is to deny humanity. Your labels are keeping you from seeing the entire picture.



The "whole environment"? How many times have you been in a strip club?

Avoiding temptations is cowardice, plain and simple. If you are indeed so strong, you should fear NOTHING. Anything else is extemporizing...

You believe what you like, if it works for you and your relationship, so be it. However, I have a problem with generalizations and close mindedness which results in some accusing others of “lying” and “exaggerating” simply because they choose to live in by different ethics.


I try not to refer constantly to my faith on this board, realizing it is a relationship board, not a religion board. However, much of my views and opinions stem from who I am and that is a person of faith who tries to follow the principles of my faith. I take issue when someone tries to insinuate I am lying when they don’t even know me or how I live my life. Fact is, just because they can’t look at a member of the opposite sex without having sexual thoughts, however frequent or infrequent, does not make it truth for the rest of the world.


Impure thought is the term I choose to use, as do other’s with beliefs as my own. While we can choose what we believe and follow, the definition of the word being, to not allow our thoughts to be contaminated, adulterated or tainted with sin, does not change. If you and some other’s wish to believe it is excessive control to not have sexual thoughts about someone other than your SO, that’s honestly between you and them. However, to attempt to generalize and make everyone else to be the same is nothing but an attempt to justify one’s own actions, as if anyone who believes differently is wrong.


I completely fail to see where it is so natural to respond with sexual thoughts towards another person simply because of biology and not based upon choices individuals make. Again, there is a difference between finding someone attractive, which is and can be quite natural, and choosing to dwell on thoughts about that person that leads to sexual thoughts, which I disagree is natural and based on biology.


You state my labels keep me from seeing the entire picture, again I disagree. However, for discussion sake lets flow with that concept. Couldn’t it then not also be said about those who choose to generalize and label all humans as responding to nothing more than a biological make up in this regard? Wouldn’t they too then be failing to see the entire picture because of the labels and views that they place upon all humanity?


I come from a large family where all the men were hard-workers and fully devoted to their wives. Where older marriages last beyond the 40-50 year range or until death and the younger marriages are still going strong. My family, both immediate and extended, has a strong foundation of values and principles stemming from our faith. To the best of my knowledge and based upon actual conversations within my family on the subject, my granduncles, uncles, cousins, grandaunts, and aunts have all refrain from activities such as strip clubs and such forms of entertainment. Guess a lot can be said about that.


As for ever attending one of these places, well I was with a man who liked these clubs, and despite my better judgment I did go a couple of times with him as he said “just come with me and you’ll see nothing happens”. Guess what, doing so did nothing more than reinforce my beliefs about such places. I stand by what I said about them. Their purpose is not for the appreciation of beauty, their purpose is the attempt to arouse the viewers through their sexualized environment. And for the record, the relationship ended due to his infidelity.


You may choose to see avoiding temptation as an act of cowardice. However, I again would have to disagree. Avoiding temptation, in my opinion, is a sign of strength in character. In this day and age, when so little is deemed as wrong and inappropriate, it takes courage, not cowardice, to go against the tide and stand by your convictions, knowing others will no doubt criticize you and mislabel you for it.


Indulging in temptations, in my opinion, is what could be more looked upon as an act of cowardice. For such actions are those that simply go with the flow and follows the crowd and what appears “cool”. It’s easy to do what the majority feels is okay, much harder is to stand your ground and say, “no it’s not okay”. It’s like something I taught my son from very early on “it takes more of a man to keep his pants on in the presence of a beautiful girl, than it does to take them off”. Similarly, I feel it takes more of a man or woman to avoid such sexual thoughts about anyone other than their SO, than it does to go along with it because… hey it’s a biological response, fully natural and something I can’t control.


I strongly believe that indulging in sexual thoughts of a person, other than your spouse, is not only wrong, but dangerous to the relationship. Every action begins with a thought. There is not an affair that did not first begin with inappropriate thoughts towards another. Just my opinion, though I believe it is backed by many in the psychological field. Personally, I afford no room for the improper thoughts to even be present. Call that cowardice, I call it strength of character and conviction.

[Ivorytickler]

I'd let him go. It's just a bunch of guys acting like neandratals . Strippers don't fall into the unfaithful department IMO. Nudity is just nudity until you do something with it.

As a friend who loved to go to such places answered when asked why he'd never cheated on his wife said "In the dark all women are built the same". He'd go out and party with his friends and then home to his wife.

Strippers don't bother me nearly as much as porn. That comes to close to taking the place of sex in a relationship.

[mari4him]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

I'd let him go. It's just a bunch of guys acting like neandratals . Strippers don't fall into the unfaithful department IMO. Nudity is just nudity until you do something with it.

As a friend who loved to go to such places answered when asked why he'd never cheated on his wife said "In the dark all women are built the same". He'd go out and party with his friends and then home to his wife.

He may have never physically cheated on his wife, but I wonder how many times he went to those clubs, indulged in viewing the naked women, and then came home to his wife, was he actually fully with her in mind, body and spirit? As opposed to how many times he was with his wife, fantasizing about being with one or more of those women he was viewing earlier? To me that is a form of cheating as well. The moment he is imagining being with someone else, while being with his wife, he is in a sense cheating even if only in his thoughts. That is my opinion at least.

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

Strippers don't bother me nearly as much as porn. That comes to close to taking the place of sex in a relationship.

To me personally, I have the same issue with porn as I do with stripper's or strip clubs. They both have the ability to play on the mind of an invidual and hold a similar potential to come between a relationship.

[SouthernBoi]

[/quote]To me personally, I have the same issue with porn as I do with stripper's or strip clubs. They both have the ability to play on the mind of an invidual and hold a similar potential to come between a relationship.[/quote]

Lifes too short to let insecurities like that get in the way.

[mari4him]

[/quote]To me personally, I have the same issue with porn as I do with stripper's or strip clubs. They both have the ability to play on the mind of an invidual and hold a similar potential to come between a relationship.

Lifes too short to let insecurities like that get in the way.[/quote]

Why does it have to be about insecurities. I am not insecure at all in my relationship. In fact, I trust my partner fully and completely, moreso than I have ever trusted a man in my life. However, being completely secure in my relationship doesn't mean that I have to like or accept porn or strip clubs as part of my life, even if through my partner's actions. By the same token, not appreciating those things and knowing that they can and often do have the ability to play on the mind of an individual and can and do at times come between relationships does not equate to insecurities.

Why is it that some of those that approve of such things can't just say that they approve of it and have no problem with it without having to accuse those that don't of either being insecure or having trust issues. It is possible that they have nothing to do with each other.

I can totally respect someone that says "hey, I don't see a problem with it and don't mind it in my life or my relationship, however I can respect and appreciate that you don't." Is that so difficult to do without having to assume someone with a different view MUST have some sort of insecurity or trust problem. Some of us actually base our view simply on our values and morals and has nothing to do with trust or insecurity.

[TexianPatriot]

I would never incorporate strippers into my bachelor party. If the bride to be wanted some nudity, I guess I'd have no choice but to strip for her. It would be kind of weird though being at her bachelorette party and getting naked in front of her best friends.

[SifuPhil]

Originally Posted by hnsq

In my opinion giving in to every temptation is mental weakness - if you are strong you should actually be in control of yourself, not have your temptations control you.

"Giving in" to them is one thing - "avoiding" them is something quite different...

[SifuPhil]

Originally Posted by NWPAguy

I believe that we all recognize that there does tend to be a knee-jerk biological reaction to a stimulating person. Nobody has been denying that. The "impure" thoughts are what goes beyond that reaction.

And by the way, let's talk about "pure" for a second. You think "pure" is subjective? Let's not play Bill Clinton with our definition of words here. Pure is "without contamination". Pure water has zero contaminants. Pure gasoline has zero contaminants and zero ethanol.

Purity is an illusion. There is not a single substance in the known universe that is without contamination of one sort or another. The only question is the degree.

If avoiding temptations is cowardice, then the cowards are the smart ones because avoiding temptations is also indicative of intelligence. Being "brave" often equates with being "dumb"... have you ever heard that old song "Billy, Don't Be A Hero"?

Yeah - good song.

What I'm getting at, and what seemingly isn't coming across, is that if you fear something - whether you acknowledge it as fear or call it dislike / moral interpitude / wrong - that fear will forever hold power over you. Until you FACE that fear, bathe in it, roll around and laugh at it, it will stay as a fear. And no amount of justification will change that.

Once you conquer that fear through direct action, THEN you can sit back and avoid it, not out of fear but out of wisdom.

Being "brave" often equates with being "dumb"

Don't agree with "often" - it all depends where the bravery is coming from and what the situation is. (Sorry to get all Clinton on you ). True bravery to me is going out and getting the job done, even when you fear dislike / loathe doing it. True bravery is rarely thought of as such at the time of the action - you're too busy getting it done. Only later do people stick the "brave" label on you...

[hnsq]

Originally Posted by SifuPhil

"Giving in" to them is one thing - "avoiding" them is something quite different...

If the temptation is not moral, and serves no logical purpose other than satisfying the temptation, it should be avoided. THAT is strength of character.