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View Poll Results: Hot or smart?
Hot guy w/the cute face and nice body 18 26.87%
Smart guy with the money 49 73.13%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-21-2008, 11:07 PM
 
Location: USA
11,169 posts, read 10,632,679 times
Reputation: 6381

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvcgal View Post
Fear of death, I don't know anyone who wants to die. Of course there is some fear there but not for the reasons that you pointed out. I have children so of course I hate to leave them behind, but especially while they are young.
My last statement to you was fear of intimacy which I stand by. You choose not to get close to any one female and that is fine but your reasons are somewhat amusing. There are pre-nups that can protect you from giving away your assets. This has to do with you not wanting to get close to a female because it scares you, obviously look at the argument. If you marry then you lose everything and are held hostage!?! Come on!
Also, I know plenty of people that are married that never plan on having children. As a matter of fact, I know more and more couples like that today.
You also stated that you have no desire to be with the same woman for the rest of your life and I have to say that I have heard many men state this exact argument. I can also tell you that I seen many men run the opposite direction of this argument once they hit their late 40's early 50's. Seriously. I'm not saying that you will change your mind but most men will sooner or later settle down and when you are the only one left single, standing on your own, you may change your mind. Not that society has to change your mind but men want women and men want women to want them.
As I stated before, everyone ages and no one, I don't care who you are, no one really wants to age or die alone. If all of your male friends get married who are you going to hang with and talk to? Not saying that marriage ends this but you become less and less part of the group because your social dynamics are less like theirs.
I am not advocating for you to get married nor do I think that you have to. If you want to be single for the rest of your life (and you do) then by all means have all the sex you can and live life to the fullest. But you can do this with a partner as well! Getting married is not the end of the world or the end of sex! The best sex I have ever had is with my hubby! Seriously!
And as an added note, I do not think that I need a man to be happy. I just know that for me, I want a man in my life. Not need, want!
You can argue this with Jonathan, but it comes down to scientific fact that human beings are *not* one of the very few select monogamous creatures that roam the Earth. If you understand the supporting scientific evidence and fact, what Jonathan chooses is not absurd, nor does it make him awkward. Environmentally it is not unusual. Socially, it is, because some understandings are based on social and religious man made belief systems.

Last edited by JeepGirl118; 10-21-2008 at 11:18 PM.. Reason: Late night careless typo spotted
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Old 10-21-2008, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Henderson, NV
7,087 posts, read 8,599,518 times
Reputation: 9978
*shakes head*

Ok you are arguing in a very polite way and being nice, so I don't want you to be offended by me getting annoyed at some of your arguments, but what you're saying is so much what's wrong with people it's just really frustrating to me. I understand most people are just going to act this way because they don't know better, but I don't understand why more people can't rise above that.

Let me do this in an organized way:

1) You just argued that I should get married because my friends would get married, and I wouldn't want to be left behind. I may not be able to hang out with my friends because they might all be married, so I should get married as well to avoid being the last man standing. First, I have to say what great personal satisfaction I would take in still being single at 40, that would make me feel just really great. I always pride myself on being strong and independent, but the proof is in the pudding. So if that were the case, and I really was the last man standing, I KNOW the friends I have would secretly be thinking, maybe not right away, but within a few years, "Wow, Jonathan really is a man of his word, I guess he really was stronger than we all were." I don't see that happening because I think too highly of my friends. They don't want to get married, either. Does that mean they won't? Of course not. As much as anyone I'm a skeptic, and in my head I think of the four closest friends I have, I guess one hasn't ever said anything against marriage, just against kids, he will definitely get married. He'll cave 100% for sure. My longest-time friend, hmm... it's tough to say. I hate to say it but I think odds are better than 50% he'll cave, but not until much later. One of my other friends, I'd go with maybe 50% as well. If so, though, he'd be late 30s by the point he did that. I think he's pretty likely not to cave, but in some ways I think it's going to happen. My last close friend, way too young to tell, I have no other friends that young. He's just too young to know whether his convictions will be the same in 5 years let alone 10 or 15. I'm working on him.

2) Sure, anyone is going to be afraid of death, but I'm not afraid of dying alone. I'm afraid of dying without great accomplishments. If I accomplish half of what I set out to do, I will at least have a measure of peace. That is a feeling greater than having all of the friends in the world, in my opinion.

3) Pre-nup? Puh-lease, do you live in California? Do you know what a community property state is? That means half of what I make after marriage, regardless of pre-nup, is going to be hers too. Since I have quite a bit of wealth, I don't want that situation to arise. Every year I don't get married I lock in more wealth I can protect in a pre-nup, at least that's good.

4) You never answered my question, though. Why get married if you don't want kids? What advantage is it going to provide? Don't state taxes, we just went over the money issue and I have a lot to lose and nothing to gain financially. You could say that the "bond" is stronger because we're committed, but I just said I don't want to be locked into something. I find no reason for that. You know what? I really like Robinson Cano on the New York Yankees, he's a good young kid, he slacks sometimes, but he's a great 2nd baseman with lots of talent. But guess what? I don't want my team to sign him to a contract for the next 20 years of his career! If I had it my way, we would sign him for one year with an indefinite team option to pick him up each year. That's the most favorable deal. Look, if I'm with a girl and every year we're together is great, and I never have any reason to get another relationship, fantastic! But why do I need to commit to forever? That makes NO sense! That doesn't benefit me rationally whatsoever. I should be free every day to make decisions about where I want to head. In 5 years, we could each be very different people. Maybe I become someone she doesn't like, maybe she just no longer is interested in me, why should she have to endure that? She should seek happiness! Life is about personal happiness, not about self-sacrificing and being miserable so that someone else can maybe be happy. I should be free to end the relationship whenever, just as she should. Hopefully not for small and transient issues, but certainly when one or both of us is no longer happy in the relationship. It's just a beyond-absurd idea to sign a deal for the rest of your life when you never know what that means. If my wife got in a car accident and was paralyzed for the rest of her life and missing her legs, hideously scarred, etc., I'm sure you would say I should stay with her out of a sense of duty to be a "good guy" and because it's "the right thing to do." But that's unfair to me -- I deserve happiness and fulfillment in the only life that I'm going to get, so I shouldn't be chained down to a girl forever no matter what may happen. The only love that unconditional should be between a parent and a child.

5) I understand that the way I see relationships bothers some people, because yes, absolutely I see it as a trade-off, and the scientific studies prove this much as well. They prove that in general people of roughly equal attractiveness levels get together. I'm not selfish in a relationship, I think it's the worst thing you can be, you should like the other person enough to want to do things for them because it makes you happy to make them happy. BUT it has to go both ways in a healthy relationship, just like the flow of oxygen in the body or the flow of blood to the heart, back and forth. That's how a healthy system functions. That is one reason I would be progressively more likely to get married as the years go on, not because I will change my mind, but because I believe that secures me the best possible deal. Let's say I was 55 years old, and I find a beautiful 27-year-old woman, maybe it makes sense to get married. She's going to have probably at least 15 more years of very good looks, and that puts me to 70 years old, when I may have trouble doing much better anyway, so it seems a fair trade for me in that respect. I'm not saying you do that for sure, but I'm saying it becomes more realistic. What if you were 80 years old, and you found a 35-year-old girl who was gorgeous and would marry you? That is a great deal for you. Maybe she's just digging for gold but if she brings you happiness, well, no harm, no foul. It's a deal like any other -- you're getting beauty and youth and fun, she's getting money and security and power.
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Old 10-21-2008, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Texas
44,256 posts, read 64,147,953 times
Reputation: 73916
JLB, I think (not that it matters what I think) that you should stay single for the right reasons rather than marry for the wrong ones. Good on ya!
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Old 10-21-2008, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Arkansas
2,383 posts, read 6,047,152 times
Reputation: 1141
Jon-
I did not say that you should get married because of society! As a matter of fact, I even stated that if you don't want to get married then fine and you should not let society make that decision for you. I am simply stating the facts to you that once you hit a certain age, your social group is going to diminsh and this whole idea of having great male buddies to conversate with is going to disappear! Your social circle will change. I'm not trying to be ugly by saying this, but it is true. Couples hang out with other couples and these great male friends that you have will no longer be around to be your total support system.
Like I said, I don't think that you ever have to get married. But your reasons for it seem financially based rather than emotionally based. I understand prenups and understand that anything earned after the fact is up for the taking. But...let's think about this for a second....if you have no kids, no family, no wife, who are you leaving it all to anyway??? If money is no object, then it should not be part of your argument. I understand the want to keep what you have earned but if you are already extremely wealthy then who cares if you lose some here and there? And this is based on the idea that you would get a divorce IF married! See, it's a negative response to marriage and I'm not sure where that negativity comes from?
You don't have to explain it to me, but understand you are already talking about what money you will lose and you are not even there. You are worrying about something that has not happened yet. This is fear.
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Old 10-21-2008, 11:43 PM
 
Location: southern california
61,289 posts, read 87,176,206 times
Reputation: 55550
this survey proves once again, that what women say and what they do, does not match up. i just looked outside my door there is no line on the sidewalk. interestingly enough its the opposite, young stupid broke creates lines, in my case it was a short one but a line nevertheless.

Last edited by Huckleberry3911948; 10-21-2008 at 11:56 PM..
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Old 10-21-2008, 11:48 PM
 
702 posts, read 2,290,683 times
Reputation: 675
I'm not voting because I like smart men without "the money".
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Old 10-21-2008, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Henderson, NV
7,087 posts, read 8,599,518 times
Reputation: 9978
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvcgal View Post
Jon-
I did not say that you should get married because of society! As a matter of fact, I even stated that if you don't want to get married then fine and you should not let society make that decision for you. I am simply stating the facts to you that once you hit a certain age, your social group is going to diminsh and this whole idea of having great male buddies to conversate with is going to disappear! Your social circle will change. I'm not trying to be ugly by saying this, but it is true. Couples hang out with other couples and these great male friends that you have will no longer be around to be your total support system.
Like I said, I don't think that you ever have to get married. But your reasons for it seem financially based rather than emotionally based. I understand prenups and understand that anything earned after the fact is up for the taking. But...let's think about this for a second....if you have no kids, no family, no wife, who are you leaving it all to anyway??? If money is no object, then it should not be part of your argument. I understand the want to keep what you have earned but if you are already extremely wealthy then who cares if you lose some here and there? And this is based on the idea that you would get a divorce IF married! See, it's a negative response to marriage and I'm not sure where that negativity comes from?
You don't have to explain it to me, but understand you are already talking about what money you will lose and you are not even there. You are worrying about something that has not happened yet. This is fear.
Haha, everyone worries about what hasn't happened yet -- what's the point of worrying about something AFTER it happens?! By that point it's time to clean up the mess not worry about it I wouldn't worry about cancer if I already had it, I would just seek treatment and hope for the best. I'd be scared, but then I'd be worried about dying, not worried about cancer. You can only worry about what hasn't happened yet.

Your idea that my friends will somehow not want to hang out anymore, because they'll all turn into total p*ssy-whipped girlie men, is really insulting not only to my sense of good taste but to my friends These are not guys who would ever let a woman tell them what to do. They at least are alpha males, even if they would weaken enough to get conned into marriage, which is a bad deal for guys in our society and a great deal for girls.

I don't need a "support system" honestly, I am not a girl. We don't all hang out and talk about our feelings and cry over ice cream and The Notebook. It's great to have friends, very fun, but it's not like my life will suddenly come to an end EVEN IF my friends abandoned me, which I don't find likely, sorry, they understand bros before hos. The ones who don't aren't my friends anymore. I'm smart enough to weed those out.

If I'm successful enough, by the time I'm 40 it shouldn't matter anyway, I will have plenty of parties to attend, events to attend, and people I know, with no shortage of new friends to be made. And if I'm wrong, and I'm not successful, then it's all a moot point anyway because I'll be miserable either way. So it's not worth focusing on the negative. Instead, it's better to assume that indeed I will have made it by the time I'm 40, 45, and the last thing I will need is some girl to prop up my fragile ego and hold me at night as I cry my way to sleep holding my childhood teddy bear

I don't think it's true that couples only hang out with other couples. I think couples with kids hang out with other couples with kids, because they live such boring, mediocre lives they have nothing to talk about besides how many poopoos little Andy left in his undies yesterday or what kind of pre-school teachers he has or what's the best way to get him to play nice with others. You know, things nobody cares about besides selfish parents who would suck the life out of any good party.

Hey if I have to get a new group of friends when I'm 45, I don't mind! Really! If my friends turn into that, they won't be friends long even if they didn't ignore me I think it's great to make new friends as you go along, you shouldn't stop making friends and meeting new people. So if I'm 45 and most of my friends are in their 20s, hey, that's ok by me! They won't mind either because I'll probably have more in common with them than anyone else my age. And for those who think "maturity" is getting married and having kids, well, fine, have it your way -- "You can only be young once, but you can be immature forever!"
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Old 10-22-2008, 12:09 AM
 
Location: Arkansas
2,383 posts, read 6,047,152 times
Reputation: 1141
"Most importantly of all, you are making the assumption that only a guy and a girl in a "committed relationship" can form a meaningful bond throughout life that somehow makes aging less horrible or death more bearable. I disagree. I have a lot of great friends, most I've known since high school, and one I've known since we went to 1st grade together. They are always going to be around, we are always going to be great friends, so the idea that you need a romantic relationship to somehow get over your fears of aging, that's just absurd. "

You brought your friends into this. You even stated that you have some friends that will "cave" into marriage. My point was they may be friends and they may be great friends but social circles change with marriage and these people can become less and less reliable. Most married couples hang out with other married couples. Yes, I have single friends, but most of my friends are married.
You mentioned "bros before hos" but have you ever seen or known that guy who gained a girlfriend and then all the sudden disappeared? Guys do get "p*&&^whipped and trust me I have seen it a million times!!! It's what happens. Girls do it too! There are girls out there that start dating someone new and all of the sudden stop hanging out with their other friends, this is not a dis on the men, this is an overall judgement of what happens when relationships form and start.

"Haha, everyone worries about what hasn't happened yet -- what's the point of worrying about something AFTER it happens?! By that point it's time to clean up the mess not worry about it I wouldn't worry about cancer if I already had it, I would just seek treatment and hope for the best. I'd be scared, but then I'd be worried about dying, not worried about cancer. You can only worry about what hasn't happened yet. "

So are you worried about getting cancer? I'm not! I don't worry about something that I have no control over. Why worry before it happens? What a negative, miserable life! Sorry but I don't worry that I am going to die in a car crash because it may happen! I would never drive. Fear based argument on marriage and apparently everything else in your life. Enough said.
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Old 10-22-2008, 12:29 AM
 
Location: Henderson, NV
7,087 posts, read 8,599,518 times
Reputation: 9978
Haha, no, there is nothing to fear but fear itself. I don't fear anything because I have enough confidence in myself that I think great things will happen. As for what you can't control, that was an interesting philosophical debate. What TV show was that on... anyway, it went like this: "I don't fear what I can't control, because I have no control over it!" said the one character. The other responds, "I ONLY fear what I can't control, because everything else I can stop!" I agree with that. You should only fear what you can't control, because if you live a life in control, then it's the only X factor that can screw up your well laid plans. Not saying you dwell on the fear but it's an annoyance.

As for my friends, no I don't think them being married would interfere with my relationships with them. My dad has plenty of friends from back when he went to high school and college, marital status was never an issue.

Yeah, I've had friends who flaked when they got a girlfriend -- as I already pointed out, I don't associate with them anymore, or they are low on the friend list. I have one friend who did this when he got his first girlfriend. We have never been as good of friends since. He was my best friend at the time, and for a while, I didn't even count him as a friend anymore really, just a previous best friend. But he has proven himself a good friend over the years, and I believe he regrets that mistake. He has never acted that way since then. Even though his current girlfriend is gorgeous and a really sweet girl, he still never acted that way again. I can forgive people their mistakes. I have never acted that way to friends, and my other guy friends have never acted that with girlfriends. They understand that GUY friends, NOT girlfriends are the ones who make lifelong friends, who will always be there for you, no matter what.

I think there's no relationship stronger in the non-familial world besides the bond between two guy friends. I don't think girls ever form relationships that closely, they are too back-stabbing, too bitchy, and too emotional. But two guys can be life-long friends and it's a bond that is only surpassed by parent and child.

I'm sorry for people who have one friend in all of the world, and that's their wife / husband. Truly, they are the most sad individuals. They think they have achieved happiness but in reality they have achieved isolation. If getting married means hanging out with other boring married couples, how sad is that? That's not even real friendship, it's just friendship of convenience. What a sorry existence. Your friends should exist in a realm totally apart from your romantic relationships. Your best and only friend shouldn't also be the person you are going out with / married to.
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Old 10-22-2008, 12:51 AM
 
Location: Arkansas
2,383 posts, read 6,047,152 times
Reputation: 1141
MY best friend isn't the person that I am married to. It is my gf since I have known since high school and I do not lead a sad boring life simply because I am married with kids. We are the couple that gets invited to everything. We are fun and funny and people love being around us. Not to sound arrogant about the situation but it is true. We are the life of the party and while I share very intimate moments and secrets with my hubby I do not tell him everything 100% because I also believe that there are things he would never understand.
As for women being backstabbers, many are but there are those that are loyal. I happen to be one of the loyal friends.
My circle of friends is very tight and very supportive and very dynamic. I have friends that are single moms, friends that are single, friends that are married without children, friends that are married with children, straight friends, gay friends, and more.
Maybe you don't get together and cry with your male pals but I don't normally do that with my circle either. I have two friends that I call and cry to if need be. That's it.
Anyway, I'm off to bed, I'm too tired to continue this argument right now.
Good night!
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