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Well, it all boils down to this: Self-Help Psychology books. And the satellite industry of television talk shows such as Oprah.
Because, somewhere along the line, the ultimate good in life no longer was being a good parent/spouse/employer/employee/citizen/whatever. Instead, the ultimate good in life is now all about one's own fulfillment.
As a result, we have a bunch of narcissists running around who feel the need to do whatever they want to feel good. Or we have the subculture of the permanently affronted who take offense at the most trivial and petty things.
I think this is because we've raised our kids telling them how special they are. How they deserve the prize. What happens when a whole generation thinks they, as indivduals, are special and all deserve the prize when they find out they're no more special than the next person and few get the prize?
We don't raise kids to grow up and be part of society anymore. We raise them to think society should take care of them because they're special. If everyone is special, then no one is special because special is normal. We need to get back to raising our kids to be part of society.
The self esteem movement has created a generation of kids who need praise to feel good about themselve but can't do anything praise worthy because their parents were too busy devoping their self esteem to develop their talents. They're used to being praised for every crayon drawing they ever did and don't understand when crayon drawings don't get praised when they are older. Some will never stop looking for that recognition. (Think Bridezilla - could be one explanation for the over the top weddings we were talking about just a few days ago).
I disagree. Did you not read my post in response to CPG's post?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
We've raised an entire generation on praise. They think they're the best and the greatest and life comes as a rude awakening for many of them. I think most make the transition after a shock period but some just don't. They want what they were promised. A world that treats them special because they are special. Only problem is, they're no more special than the next person.
And what exactly is "part of society"? What is the definition of that?
In my experience I've seen people work themselves to the bone to meet the perfect standards of society, which can include Machiavellian and other sneaky ways to achieve those standards. They live for the achievement at the expense of quality relationships, friendships, and life fulfillment. Everything is a competition. Everything is about working to the bone just to get crumbs. Is this what you speak of???
Sorry but I just do not believe "praise" or feeling "special" is the reason why people are so nasty or messed up.
If I work hard and the boss is snide and rude to me and refuses to acknowledge or praise any of my work, then guess what? I'm going to leave the job and find another one because his negative attitude is wearing me down and driving me up a wall. I don't care about the boss enough to stay and put up with his or her negative garbage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I think this is because we've raised our kids telling them how special they are. How they deserve the prize. What happens when a whole generation thinks they, as indivduals, are special and all deserve the prize when they find out they're no more special than the next person and few get the prize?
We don't raise kids to grow up and be part of society anymore. We raise them to think society should take care of them because they're special. If everyone is special, then no one is special because special is normal. We need to get back to raising our kids to be part of society.
We are victims of our biology. We are hard wired to behave certain ways - but we have big enough brains to have come up with the idea that the "should" be a better way.
This conflict has created all sorts of craziness.
I have not read the book The Selfish Gene but I plan to.
I disagree. Did you not read my post in response to CPG's post?
I disagree. I think the issue is we've raised a generation who think they come first because they're special. They want...er, no...expect the prize. They're disillusioned when they don't get it or forever in persuit of it. There's always something missing because they're not getting the attention or praise they think they should get. What do you expect when you raise kids on praise without ability?
You can hurt yourself when you fall off of your pedestal.
While our society is materialstic, I don't see that as the problem. I see self centeredness as the problem. It's not putting things above people that is the issue. It's putting yourself before others. This idea that I'm special and should be treated special only works if you really are special and there's reason to treat you special. Otherwise, you're just one of the pack and you need to learn to get along as one of the pack.
Our persuit of building self esteem in our kids only built false self images. They grew up and life didn't treat them as special as mom said they were. Some adjusted. Others are still looking to be treated special so they go from relationship to relationship, throw lavish weddings they can't afford, have kids in an attempt to find fullfillment, buy a bigger grander house, car, boat, whatever....the materialism you are complaining about is the attempt to fill that void created by growing up being told how special you are. New and bigger things are trophies to show how special I am.
It's not that people are materialistic. It's that they're trying to fill a black hole they don't know how to fill. They've lost their specialness and they're trying to find it again. Shopping, gambling, affairs...anything to make themselves feel special again. When you grew up special, becomming just like everyone else can be a hard fall.
And what exactly is "part of society"? What is the definition of that?
In my experience I've seen people work themselves to the bone to meet the perfect standards of society, which can include Machiavellian and other sneaky ways to achieve those standards. They live for the achievement at the expense of quality relationships, friendships, and life fulfillment. Everything is a competition. Everything is about working to the bone just to get crumbs. Is this what you speak of???
Sorry but I just do not believe "praise" or feeling "special" is the reason why people are so nasty or messed up.
If I work hard and the boss is snide and rude to me and refuses to acknowledge or praise any of my work, then guess what? I'm going to leave the job and find another one because his negative attitude is wearing me down and driving me up a wall. I don't care about the boss enough to stay and put up with his or her negative garbage.
Part of society is being part of the community. Yes, people work themselves to the bone trying to gain approval of society. That's part of the problem. When you grow up and base your self esteem on the approval of others, you will, continually, seek the approval of others. When do we get the attention and approval of others? When we graduate.... marry and throw the big party..when we have kids...when we get a promotion...when we get a nicer house...new car...etc, etc, etc...
Why does your boss need to praise you for doing your job? That's what you're paid for. Why does your work need to be praised? Don't you know when you've done well? Why the need for recognition? What's wrong with doing the job you're paid to do to the standard you're paid to do it and going home knowing you lived up to your responsibilities?
Truely being part of society is something different. It's caring about others not worrying about whether they pat us on the back. When was the last time you praised your bosses work?
Actually, I was speaking about my boss when I first started being trained, and no I didn't know if I was doing a good job or not. And if people are doing a good job at work then why be negative, jealous, and rude about it? You just said in your other post that people are treated well or "special" as you call it, if they do a good job because they are deserving, however, deserving is very subjective. That is another issue, how to measure deserving and undeserving, in which manipulation and control of a person can easily occur. Special is a subjective term too.
I agree with that it is wrong to do whatever makes people feel good, such as, casual sex, affairs, recreational drugs, spending above your means, greed in general is what you speak of.....and yes I think friends with benefits is greedy and selfish.
My parents didn't raise me to feel special or that I was special. They just said to be nice and respectful to everybody regardless of differences. If somebody does a good job, it is ok to say "Hey great job on that." I was raised in a way to produce positive vibes, not negative vibes. Like I wouldn't roll my eyes and be negative to somebody that has done a very good job at something. That is just stupid and immature to do so.
Like you said, the goal is to build talents, skills, and productive behaviors, those are built through instruction, and then do some praise or rewarding every now and again if the skills and behaviors happened to have been shaped. Why make life miserable by not doing that? The best places I've worked with the most pleasant and joyful atmospheres were places where the supervisor would say nice things to the co-workers. It made for a very nice place to work and in return productivity was good and customer's enjoyed visiting.
The most negative places were colleges, where they have your type of mentality which borders on mild Stalinism j/k, however,
I do not work myself to the bone, even in college because it is not a work camp. I do whatever work that I think I can do. If I do not do well at all, then that is fine I get a C or a D for my grades, no expectation for praise or rewards but I still deserve respect. I do whatever I can do, however, what makes me sick are the pressures from society or groups to conform to their belief systems and concepts of what is deserving and what isn't. I'm not going to do better work because a group of people are shunning, criticizing me, or withholding positive feedback. I've never worked myself to the bone to gain society's approval like so many people do. I do whatever I am capable of, if I fail at it, that is fine but what disgusts me are the people in society ready to jump and pounce on your every failure to ensure that you are feeling guilty and hurt......are you one of those types?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Part of society is being part of the community. Yes, people work themselves to the bone trying to gain approval of society. That's part of the problem. When you grow up and base your self esteem on the approval of others, you will, continually, seek the approval of others. When do we get the attention and approval of others? When we graduate.... marry and throw the big party..when we have kids...when we get a promotion...when we get a nicer house...new car...etc, etc, etc...
Why does your boss need to praise you for doing your job? That's what you're paid for. Why does your work need to be praised? Don't you know when you've done well? Why the need for recognition? What's wrong with doing the job you're paid to do to the standard you're paid to do it and going home knowing you lived up to your responsibilities?
We are victims of our biology. We are hard wired to behave certain ways - but we have big enough brains to have come up with the idea that the "should" be a better way.
This conflict has created all sorts of craziness.
I have not read the book The Selfish Gene but I plan to.
Ooh, I haven't heard of this one. I'll have to add it to my summer reading list.
Actually, I was speaking about my boss when I first started being trained, and no I didn't know if I was doing a good job or not. And if people are doing a good job at work then why be negative, jealous, and rude about it? You just said in your other post that people are treated well or "special" as you call it, if they do a good job because they are deserving, however, deserving is very subjective. That is another issue, how to measure deserving and undeserving, in which manipulation and control of a person can easily occur. Special is a subjective term too.
I agree with that it is wrong to do whatever makes people feel good, such as, casual sex, affairs, recreational drugs, spending above your means, greed in general is what you speak of.....and yes I think friends with benefits is greedy and selfish.
My parents didn't raise me to feel special or that I was special. They just said to be nice and respectful to everybody regardless of differences. If somebody does a good job, it is ok to say "Hey great job on that." I was raised in a way to produce positive vibes, not negative vibes. Like I wouldn't roll my eyes and be negative to somebody that has done a very good job at something. That is just stupid and immature to do so.
Like you said, the goal is to build talents, skills, and productive behaviors, those are built through instruction, and then do some praise or rewarding every now and again if the skills and behaviors happened to have been shaped. Why make life miserable by not doing that? The best places I've worked with the most pleasant and joyful atmospheres were places where the supervisor would say nice things to the co-workers. It made for a very nice place to work and in return productivity was good and customer's enjoyed visiting.
The most negative places were colleges, where they have your type of mentality which borders on mild Stalinism j/k, however,
I do not work myself to the bone, even in college because it is not a work camp. I do whatever work that I think I can do. If I do not do well at all, then that is fine I get a C or a D for my grades, no expectation for praise or rewards but I still deserve respect. I do whatever I can do, however, what makes me sick are the pressures from society or groups to conform to their belief systems and concepts of what is deserving and what isn't. I'm not going to do better work because a group of people are shunning, criticizing me, or withholding positive feedback. I've never worked myself to the bone to gain society's approval like so many people do. I do whatever I am capable of, if I fail at it, that is fine but what disgusts me are the people in society ready to jump and pounce on your every failure to ensure that you are feeling guilty and hurt......are you one of those types?
LOL, at colleges. That's where I got the most praise for my work, lol. In colleges, good work is rewarded with good grades, awards and recognition by people like the dean. That's Stalinism? Hard work is rewarded? Okay...that's news to me.
Who is disrespecting you? What are they saying that's disrespectful?
Sorry but groups have the right to decide what is deserving and what isn't. Why would you expect a group to give positive feedback if they don't consider your performance positive? And why do you need positive feedback at all? You're an adult. If you don't like the standards of the group, start your own group. No one says you have to belong to their group.
It might seem I'm one of those types depending who you are. My standards are high. However, there's nothing wrong with high standards. (I was mostly A's and a few B's in college. I figured I'd get my money's worth while I was there. What you see as being a conformist, I see as getting value for the money I spent on college...well, I didn't actually spend money since I was on a scholarship but I wanted all the value I could get out of my education just the same.) I know what I'm capable of and expect my best from myself. I think others, particularly those who pay me, have the right to expect my best too.
And FTR, I've been dissed for my standards before. My previous employer kept telling me to get an MBA but I got an MS instead. It's probably why they're my ex employer. They saw me as management material and I disagreed. I don't hold that against them. They saw something they liked but I wasn't the person for that job because I didn't see the same thing. I saw someone very good at the tech aspect of my job not the people aspect. IMO, you have to be a good people person to be a manager not just good at the job you do.
LOL, at colleges. That's where I got the most praise for my work, lol. In colleges, good work is rewarded with good grades, awards and recognition by people like the dean. That's Stalinism? Hard work is rewarded? Okay...that's news to me.
Who is disrespecting you? What are they saying that's disrespectful?
Sorry but groups have the right to decide what is deserving and what isn't. Why would you expect a group to give positive feedback if they don't consider your performance positive? And why do you need positive feedback at all? You're an adult. If you don't like the standards of the group, start your own group. No one says you have to belong to their group.
It might seem I'm one of those types depending who you are. My standards are high. However, there's nothing wrong with high standards. (I was mostly A's and a few B's in college. I figured I'd get my money's worth while I was there. What you see as being a conformist, I see as getting value for the money I spent on college...well, I didn't actually spend money since I was on a scholarship but I wanted all the value I could get out of my education just the same.) I know what I'm capable of and expect my best from myself. I think others, particularly those who pay me, have the right to expect my best too.
And FTR, I've been dissed for my standards before. My previous employer kept telling me to get an MBA but I got an MS instead. It's probably why they're my ex employer. They saw me as management material and I disagreed. I don't hold that against them. They saw something they liked but I wasn't the person for that job because I didn't see the same thing. I saw someone very good at the tech aspect of my job not the people aspect. IMO, you have to be a good people person to be a manager not just good at the job you do.
So true.....your post in on point.
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If everyone is special, then no one is special because special is normal. We need to get back to raising our kids to be part of society.
