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No offense wayne but have you been a women giving up most or even all control to a man?
As previously stated, you're talking about different ideas from mine. If I need to "tell" someone they need to go to bed or the like...I really don't know what to say about that.
It's not about "giving up" anything to me in this philosophical debate for me. If you'd read what I have said previously fully, this shouldn't be in question for you anymore.
I don't expect a woman to be submissive in the sense you're giving. However, I will say briefly, the best relationship I've had was one that I wasn't being challenged on everything I said, or any decision I made.
But much like the "what's wrong with him.."/green eye'd monster thread I'm giving up trying to put my point across further. Nobody wants to hear it for what it is, aside from Braunwyn in this case I think.
Last edited by Waynec613; 06-10-2009 at 07:52 PM..
As previously stated, you're talking about different ideas from mine. If I need to "tell" someone they need to go to bed or the like...I really don't know what to say about that.
Ok
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waynec613
It's not about "giving up" anything to me in this philosophical debate for me. If you'd read what I have said previously fully, this shouldn't be in question for you anymore.
I did read what you said but still don't understand what you mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waynec613
I don't expect a woman to be submissive in the sense you're giving. However, I will say briefly, the best relationship I've had was one that I wasn't being challenged on everything I said, or any decision I made.
Which is how it should be for both people in the relationship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waynec613
But much like the "what's wrong with him.."/green eye'd monster thread I'm giving up trying to put my point across further. Nobody wants to hear it for what it is, aside from Braunwyn in this case I think.
Fair enough. Guess I'll just have to settle for it being another of life's great mysteries!
Don't submit just because society has deemed one gender weaker, less competent than the other and you just happen to have been born the losing gender.
I believe you are reading something into this that isn't there. "Equality" and "weaker" and "less competent" are both terms bandied about when this topic is misunderstood (why not mention "glass ceiling" while you're at it). In a good dance, the man and woman are both "equal" and both have "equal rights" and both are "equally strong" and they both have equal trust of each other, and they both have a very sensitive "read" on each others' feelings and desires. From this, the man leads the way. That's all. This "equality" stuff is a red herring. Edit: When my parents made decisions for me during my childhood, I loved it when they "magically" knew what I wanted, and if it wasn't something that I wanted there was a pretty good chance that it was for my own good anyway, and I trusted them on that point; so you could say, Yes, I did enjoy it very much when my parents made decisions for me, and I think this is common for most people with good parental experiences -- too bad I had to grow up and they ran out of being able to decide what to do, lol.
" EVEN FIREMEN????" ==> These guys admitted they were clueless, and they complained about it as well, saying a couple different times, "Yeah I didn't KNOW how to (make the next move to lead the way) and it sucked, I should have *manned up* sooner! I didn't know how though LOL" Note the phrase, when someone is being lame or wishy-washy, "man up". The phrase isn't "female up", lol. So in their relationship, guess who will end up wearing the pants in a perhaps unhappy gender-role-reversal... yup, their girlfriends.. Too bad there isn't a marriage counselor present, I'm sure he/she would say that a big part of relationship problems are encountered due to the man not "being a man and manning up" and simultaneously due to the female not "allowing her man an opportunity to make steps towards manning up". Shakespeare wrote Taming of the Shrew hundreds of years ago, so perhaps it's a recurring theme in general.
I believe you are reading something into this that isn't there. "Equality" and "weaker" and "less competent" are both terms bandied about when this topic is misunderstood (why not mention "glass ceiling" while you're at it). In a good dance, the man and woman are both "equal" and both have "equal rights" and both are "equally strong" and they both have equal trust of each other, and they both have a very sensitive "read" on each others' feelings and desires. From this, the man leads the way. That's all. This "equality" stuff is a red herring. Edit: When my parents made decisions for me during my childhood, I loved it when they "magically" knew what I wanted, and if it wasn't something that I wanted there was a pretty good chance that it was for my own good anyway, and I trusted them on that point; so you could say, Yes, I did enjoy it very much when my parents made decisions for me, and I think this is common for most people with good parental experiences -- too bad I had to grow up and they ran out of being able to decide what to do, lol..
Cool! Shouldn't be any problem to switch it around and let the woman do the leading then.
I enjoyed my childhood too and it was nice to have my parents make decisions for me before I was able to do it for myself but I cannot imagine as an elderly person being happy to be back in the same situation. There's a reason for that. Parents raise you to independence AND much and all as life gets difficult sometimes and we wish to go back to a time and place where others are in charge of us falsely thinking this will simplify everything and feel more soothing in actuality I know very few elderly people that are able to submit to someone else being in charge after spending their lives independent.
I doubt you'd be any different. I know I won't be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeSmartHippies
" EVEN FIREMEN????" ==> These guys admitted they were clueless, and they complained about it as well, saying a couple different times, "Yeah I didn't KNOW how to (make the next move to lead the way) and it sucked, I should have *manned up* sooner! I didn't know how though LOL" Note the phrase, when someone is being lame or wishy-washy, "man up". The phrase isn't "female up", lol. So in their relationship, guess who will end up wearing the pants in a perhaps unhappy gender-role-reversal... yup, their girlfriends.. Too bad there isn't a marriage counselor present, I'm sure he/she would say that a big part of relationship problems are encountered due to the man not "being a man and manning up" and simultaneously due to the female not "allowing her man an opportunity to make steps towards manning up". Shakespeare wrote Taming of the Shrew hundreds of years ago, so perhaps it's a recurring theme in general.
I believe the equal term is "Stop being a girl". But there are a whole lot of societal expectations and gender stereotypes placed on either gender including the one we're currently discussing here which seems to be that my thought processes are not adequate or sound simply because I don't agree. I'm well aware I'm supposed to smile sweetly and all will be forgiven. (that's not a dig at you by the way and more a statement of fact that I'm acknowledging recognition of)
I don't think you can predict specific outcomes for a relationship based on how things start out. Plenty of people start out madly in love but it doesn't always end that way. Saying that he didn't man up in the beginning means his girlfriend will be the one wearing the pants for the rest of the relationship doesn't take into consideration life, the universe and everything. ALL the OTHER outside forces that shape a relationship. Like kids, illness, death, financial matters.
Nothing is set in concrete and perhaps this is why I'm having trouble with your assertion that men lead and women that don't submit have something wrong with them.
LUCKILY for me I don't have to worry so much about Taming of The Shrew and buying into that kind of stereotypical reinforcement of gender roles AND luckily for him I don't expect him to have the answer for everything, take the lead in everything. Sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow, sometimes he leads, sometimes he follows. As far as I can see that's a much better dance.
Submission is not giving up all freedom and control of your life. It seems like the women here have extreme views on it, and will go against a natural tendency in some instances just to prove a point. Equality isn't always 50/50; in any good relationship there is give and take on both parties, and sometimes the proportion is not equal. The woman is probably the better shopper and cook, so food and shopping is in her favor 80/20, let's say. The man, who may be more mechanically inclined, decides on car and home repair issues, 90/10. None of these things are spelled out, but it happens naturally in a relationship. I don't know too many men who will fight to say they want to be 50/50 in the shopping, if they know their wife is better at it, even if they can and are willing to cook.
I'm sure a lot of men have made major sacrifices to become a husband. Lots of dudes give up hobbies, toys, even friends, to become a good man for their wife. So it's not that the man doesn't give anything up or make sacrifices, or never defers to the wife.
Some of you need to get you minds right when it comes to this. It shouldn't be this difficult.
But much like the "what's wrong with him.."/green eye'd monster thread I'm giving up trying to put my point across further. Nobody wants to hear it for what it is, aside from Braunwyn in this case I think.
I'm sure a lot of men have made major sacrifices to become a husband. Lots of dudes give up hobbies, toys, even friends, to become a good man for their wife. So it's not that the man doesn't give anything up or make sacrifices, or never defers to the wife.
I agree. I think almost everyone agrees about this. What we women--the ones with our heads in the wrong places--don't understand is why you men keep insisting that you're the leaders. You make sacrifices. You allow us to influence your decisions. You go with what we want sometimes. It's give and take, as ILikeSmartHippies said.
It bugs you that we keep insisting we're not submissive, that we're equal and not less--it doesn't even occur to you why being told we should submit and obey feels like being less to almost any woman today. When you guys do it for us--you know, the sacrificing and giving up and doing what we want--that's not submitting or obeying. No, that would mean you were sissies. You just do those things for us because it's the manly thing that leaders do.
Submission is not giving up all freedom and control of your life. It seems like the women here have extreme views on it, and will go against a natural tendency in some instances just to prove a point.
Perhaps it's just that a lot of us (females in this thread) don't share in your pov and experiences. It's only natural to note our experiences. That's not to say many don't share in your views, but those that don't have a voice as well. And there are a few of us in this thread.
Quote:
Equality isn't always 50/50; in any good relationship there is give and take on both parties, and sometimes the proportion is not equal. The woman is probably the better shopper and cook, so food and shopping is in her favor 80/20, let's say.
I'm allergic to shopping. I exhibit IBS symptoms if I enter a mall. I think it may have something to do with the lighting in those places. Who knows. And a supermarket? Forget it. I'm good for about 10 minutes. I was very thin when I met my husband (underweight really). He learned real quick that if he wanted either of us to eat on a regular basis, he'd have to take care of that.
Quote:
The man, who may be more mechanically inclined, decides on car and home repair issues, 90/10. None of these things are spelled out, but it happens naturally in a relationship.
At my job, I work with, troubleshoot, and maintain instrumentation that costs more than the average home. Home maintenance is in line with tinker toys by comparison. Over half of my colleagues are women, so I'm not an outlier. Again, I'm not putting this forth as a generalization, rather noting that we're all different.
Perhaps it's just that a lot of us (females in this thread) don't share in your pov and experiences. It's only natural to note our experiences. That's not to say many don't share in your views, but those that don't have a voice as well. And there are a few of us in this thread.
I'm allergic to shopping. I exhibit IBS symptoms if I enter a mall. I think it may have something to do with the lighting in those places. Who knows. And a supermarket? Forget it. I'm good for about 10 minutes. I was very thin when I met my husband (underweight really). He learned real quick that if he wanted either of us to eat on a regular basis, he'd have to take care of that.
At my job, I work with, troubleshoot, and maintain instrumentation that costs more than the average home. Home maintenance is in line with tinker toys by comparison. Over half of my colleagues are women, so I'm not an outlier. Again, I'm not putting this forth as a generalization, rather noting that we're all different.
And I'm sure your SO had some idea of these things about you before you two got serious. And it works. I'm not aruguing that.
I agree. I think almost everyone agrees about this. What we women--the ones with our heads in the wrong places--don't understand is why you men keep insisting that you're the leaders. You make sacrifices. You allow us to influence your decisions. You go with what we want sometimes. It's give and take, as ILikeSmartHippies said.
It bugs you that we keep insisting we're not submissive, that we're equal and not less--it doesn't even occur to you why being told we should submit and obey feels like being less to almost any woman today. When you guys do it for us--you know, the sacrificing and giving up and doing what we want--that's not submitting or obeying. No, that would mean you were sissies. You just do those things for us because it's the manly thing that leaders do.
Two things:
I don't think submission needs to be stated- in most instances it's not even uttered between a man and his wife. It's understood and you can tell in most relationships when it has been crossed- because things fall off balance.
Submission is a dirty word to women, and it loses its value when discussed. So, based on my first point, any man who is secure in his wouldn't even have to use the word. If there's a problem in the area, you talk it out. There's a lot to be said about a man who has to harp on this issue, though, because it's something that is earned at some point in the relationship, just like respect. I'd say it should be something you can see in your wife before you say "I do".
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Nobody wants to hear it for what it is, aside from 
Guess I'll just have to settle for it being another of life's great mysteries! 
Cool! Shouldn't be any problem to switch it around and let the woman do the leading then. 
