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Old 06-22-2009, 10:07 PM
 
4,810 posts, read 5,059,634 times
Reputation: 2458
Quote:
Originally Posted by artsyguy View Post
Have you done research on internalized homophobia, heterosexism, and homonegativity? Those concepts fit perfectly into what you are discussing.

Even gay men distort masculinity/heterosexism that usually involves promiscuity, lack of care about appearance, tobacco use, alcoholism, drug use, etc....
Exactly! Those things lead to the double standars that I see around me and brought up in the OP.

I wish it was like it was back in the day (minus the homophobia, sexism and racism that is) when men could be loving, compassionate, and caring while still being men and not have to feel pressure to conform to a media created image of unrealistic hyper-"masculinity". I use quotes because the "masculinity" of today is not what it should mean. Restraint is a traditionally masculine concept, and yet, today, it is lack of restraint is equated with being a "real man", hence, a man who is not ready for sex and restrains himself is mocked for not conforming with the construct masculinity of the day.

Being a real man is not about beating people up, getting laid left and right, and having no respect for women.

It should be the classic idea of chivalry, respect, and stoicism. No, showing respect is equated with weakness, hand having emotions, wether or not you control them like a real man should, is considered "gay". These notions lead to allot of the double standards that I was talking about.

 
Old 06-22-2009, 10:10 PM
 
25,170 posts, read 33,536,398 times
Reputation: 6690
I wouldn't get angry with the OP. He is equally as mad about the bigoted beliefs he has heard or seen around his town. I've known people with pea-brain mentalities in college. Can you believe that? They can study and pass the exams but conservative and backward beliefs may never change because they are so deeply ingrained into the person's mind.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rickmahorn View Post
Where the f*** do you live? I don't want to sound pretentious, but it sounds like you surround yourself with socially conservative and uneducated people. Not to mention that you come off as unintelligible yourself.

It is a little less socially acceptable to be a homosexual male than a homosexual female. I will not deny this, but this is not the argument you made in your OP. You stated that a woman who fooled around with other women in college will be considered 100% straight later in life while a guy who experimented once with a guy in college would be considered 100% gay later in life. Who the f*** could logically make that argument? I have never heard ANYONE make such a claim.

There is a small social pressure on men to be sexually promiscuous, I am not denying this. Why is it that you are now retreating from your original assertions and coming up with new ones?

If anything, there exists a double standard where a man can sleep with as many woman as he wants and be considered "smooth" or a "player". A women who sleeps with a lot of men will at the same time be considered a "****" or "*****". I have rarely ever heard of someone being called "gay" or "insane" for not being sexually promiscuous.

I have no problem calling out women who have an inaccurate view of reality.

I am a man, just as you are. I am telling you that your OP is not based on reality. Those types of things just don't exist in my environment. If I want to take it slow with a woman, nobody is calling me "gay" or "insane". If I am sad about a breakup, nobody is making fun of me. If anything, there is an unjust reaction towards the other person in the relationship.

Again, where the f*** do you live? Move or get new friends if this is the type of social environment you are living with. It sounds like you are living in the 1960's.
 
Old 06-22-2009, 10:11 PM
 
2,023 posts, read 3,473,798 times
Reputation: 1547
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post

Being a real man is not about beating people up, getting laid left and right, and having no respect for women.
Wow, a dose of reality!!!

Of course this is what being a "real man" is. And, there are very many out there. It's just a shame that you are so wrapped up in your "woe is me" attitude that you can't open your eyes to see what's probably right in front of you.
 
Old 06-22-2009, 10:13 PM
 
Location: New Milford, NJ
1,448 posts, read 1,963,328 times
Reputation: 964
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
I live in New Jersey and I can tell you, double standars against men are almost as bad (but different in nature) as they are against women...and notice only one person says anything about the content of the OP? I get personal attacks that might has well have been written by an eighth grader and all kinds of BS, but no one says anything about the subject at hand.

Can anyone deny that the courts go after women for child support allot less then they do men? Ask any single dad and he might tell you about that himself.

Can anyone deny that a man experimenting with homosexual sex in their youth is nowhere near as socially accepted as a female experimenting with homosexual sex in her youth?

Can anyone deny that a man will be most likely mocked by his peers and looked at strangly by his girlfriend if he says that he is not ready for sex and does not behave like the overly-sexual construct male that the media portrays and so many people believe?

No...folks just say "you're nuts blah blah blah" and ignore the substance in a manner that I would expect from my twelve year old nephew.
Oh, so you probably live near me. Ok, well there are a lot of macho guidos around here and I'm sure you'll find them in the city too. I guess you need to associate yourself with different people then.

For everyone that thinks that way, there are plenty of others who don't. I sure don't. And I know all kinds of people...gay, straght, bi, swingers, guy I know with three kids, got divorced and gave a BJ to a tranny because he always wanted to experiment. His choice, I don't judge. Also doesn't make him gay or even bi. Not saying I haven't heard all of those things and that they don't exist. I grew up here, I know. I don't patronize.

As far as child support goes, the courts will go after a woman, rest assured. However, statistically, as the state of NJ told me directly, the children live with the mother who is the custodial parent IN 90% OF THE CASES OF CHILD SUPPORT.

I do know two single fathers, one has 2 kids, the other one. Neither gets anything as the women are both deadbeats for different reasons. However, the man is usually in a better position financially. The guy with two kids was the breadwinner, she was at home with the kids. If she booted him, she had no means of support. Unfortunately she got involved in drugs and he booted her. The other one is just crazy period. And I mean that literally. She needs medication and refuses to get treated for her....well, insanity or take meds.
 
Old 06-22-2009, 10:14 PM
 
25,170 posts, read 33,536,398 times
Reputation: 6690
I've encountered similar people in the colleges I've been too, it happens even amongst liberals. It's messed up and shocking.

Masculinity takes many forms and shapes. Some people just don't get that. Often gays and other traditionally oppressed minorities take the views of the oppressors. It's truly disgusting. Hypermasculinity is just a bunch of BS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Exactly! Those things lead to the double standars that I see around me and brought up in the OP.

I wish it was like it was back in the day (minus the homophobia, sexism and racism that is) when men could be loving, compassionate, and caring while still being men and not have to feel pressure to conform to a media created image of unrealistic hyper-"masculinity". I use quotes because the "masculinity" of today is not what it should mean. Restraint is a traditionally masculine concept, and yet, today, it is lack of restraint is equated with being a "real man", hence, a man who is not ready for sex and restrains himself is mocked for not conforming with the construct masculinity of the day.

Being a real man is not about beating people up, getting laid left and right, and having no respect for women.

It should be the classic idea of chivalry, respect, and stoicism. No, showing respect is equated with weakness, hand having emotions, wether or not you control them like a real man should, is considered "gay". These notions lead to allot of the double standards that I was talking about.
 
Old 06-22-2009, 10:16 PM
 
4,810 posts, read 5,059,634 times
Reputation: 2458
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickmahorn View Post
Where the f*** do you live? I don't want to sound pretentious, but it sounds like you surround yourself with socially conservative and uneducated people. Not to mention that you come off as unintelligible yourself.
This from someone who curses up a storm in their reply. I sound "unintelligible"

Quote:
It is a little less socially acceptable to be a homosexual male than a homosexual female. I will not deny this, but this is not the argument you made in your OP. You stated that a woman who fooled around with other women in college will be considered 100% straight later in life while a guy who experimented once with a guy in college would be considered 100% gay later in life. Who the f*** could logically make that argument? I have never heard ANYONE make such a claim.
Some links to back up my claims that I doubt anyone will look at...

Bi For Now

Young Women Defy Labels in Intimacy With Both Sexes - ABC News

Urban Dictionary: bar-sexual


Quote:
There is a small social pressure on men to be sexually promiscuous, I am not denying this. Why is it that you are now retreating from your original assertions and coming up with new ones?

I am not backing down. There is A LOT of pressure on men to be sexual animals, as I have always said.

Quote:
If anything, there exists a double standard where a man can sleep with as many woman as he wants and be considered "smooth" or a "player". A women who sleeps with a lot of men will at the same time be considered a "****" or "*****". I have rarely ever heard of someone being called "gay" or "insane" for not being sexually promiscuous.
First of all, there are plenty of threads where women bring up double standards against women...why don't you go trolling into those threads too? Second, I was not talking about sexual promiscouity. If a man in a relationship wants to wait before he has sex, there will be nowhere near the same reaction from his peers, his partner, and society at large as there would be for a woman in the same position. Hence, the double standard.

Quote:
II am a man, just as you are. I am telling you that your OP is not based on reality. Those types of things just don't exist in my environment. If I want to take it slow with a woman, nobody is calling me "gay" or "insane". If I am sad about a breakup, nobody is making fun of me. If anything, there is an unjust reaction towards the other person in the relationship.

Again, where the f*** do you live? Move or get new friends if this is the type of social environment you are living with. It sounds like you are living in the 1960's.

Please calm down, and attempt to type without cursing.
 
Old 06-22-2009, 10:18 PM
 
4,810 posts, read 5,059,634 times
Reputation: 2458
Quote:
Originally Posted by mishigas73 View Post
Wow, a dose of reality!!!

Of course this is what being a "real man" is. And, there are very many out there. It's just a shame that you are so wrapped up in your "woe is me" attitude that you can't open your eyes to see what's probably right in front of you.

Were in the OP did I mention "me"? I was talking about double standards in general, most of which do not apply to me (I have never had to pay child support, I have never had a girlfriend to go slow with etc)

So, that comment has absolutely no bearing on the subject at hand.
 
Old 06-22-2009, 10:21 PM
 
2,023 posts, read 3,473,798 times
Reputation: 1547
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Were in the OP did I mention "me"? I was talking about double standards in general, most of which do not apply to me (I have never had to pay child support, I have never had a girlfriend to go slow with etc)

So, that comment has absolutely no bearing on the subject at hand.
Ok, so let me see if I have this straight. You're wallowing in a "woe is me" attitude, and because you bring up some hypothetical scenarios that don't have anything to do with your life, what I have said "doesn't have any bearing on the subject at hand"?

Good one. Not that I'm surprised though. It's tough to take a good look at yourself rather than blaming the rest of the world for the way you feel.

Good luck getting through life, you're definitely going to need it.
 
Old 06-22-2009, 10:24 PM
 
25,170 posts, read 33,536,398 times
Reputation: 6690
Well how is he blaming the world for how he feels? When how he feels is a legitimate feeling? It's a perspective on societal issues.

Philosophers, sociologists, and psychologists have all had conflicting opinions and feelings about society, social constructs, and beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mishigas73 View Post
Ok, so let me see if I have this straight. You're wallowing in a "woe is me" attitude, and because you bring up some hypothetical scenarios that don't have anything to do with your life, what I have said "doesn't have any bearing on the subject at hand"?

Good one. Not that I'm surprised though. It's tough to take a good look at yourself rather than blaming the rest of the world for the way you feel.

Good luck getting through life, you're definitely going to need it.
 
Old 06-22-2009, 10:24 PM
 
4,810 posts, read 5,059,634 times
Reputation: 2458
Quote:
Originally Posted by onegreatnurse View Post
Oh, so you probably live near me. Ok, well there are a lot of macho guidos around here and I'm sure you'll find them in the city too. I guess you need to associate yourself with different people then.

For everyone that thinks that way, there are plenty of others who don't. I sure don't. And I know all kinds of people...gay, straght, bi, swingers, guy I know with three kids, got divorced and gave a BJ to a tranny because he always wanted to experiment. His choice, I don't judge. Also doesn't make him gay or even bi. Not saying I haven't heard all of those things and that they don't exist. I grew up here, I know. I don't patronize.
I never claimed these double standards applyed to EVERYONE. I was just saying, they exist. I do not think that a woman who has many sex partners is a "tramp" while a man in the same position is "a player". So, do people barge into one of the innumerable threads that say as such and yell "that's not true, you're insane blah blah blah..."?

Even if it does not hold true for everyone, it is still a double standard.

Quote:
As far as child support goes, the courts will go after a woman, rest assured. However, statistically, as the state of NJ told me directly, the children live with the mother who is the custodial parent IN 90% OF THE CASES OF CHILD SUPPORT.
What about the other ten percent?

Quote:
I do know two single fathers, one has 2 kids, the other one. Neither gets anything as the women are both deadbeats for different reasons. However, the man is usually in a better position financially. The guy with two kids was the breadwinner, she was at home with the kids. If she booted him, she had no means of support. Unfortunately she got involved in drugs and he booted her. The other one is just crazy period. And I mean that literally. She needs medication and refuses to get treated for her....well, insanity or take meds.
Even if the man makes more, as long as the woman has a job, she LEGALLY has to be paying something. Trust me, the courts go after dead beat moms nowhere near as much as they do dead beat dads, and I am not making this up...

Quote:
The percentage of "deadbeat" moms is actually higher than that of dads who won't pay, even though mothers are more consistently awarded custody of children by the courts.
FOXNews.com - Moms Can Be Deadbeats Too - U.S. & World
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