Where have all the good black men gone? (handsome, San Diego, NYC)

[MrSykes]

Originally Posted by The_Fairfaxian

Well since we're talking about screw-ups of black men and women, what about the young blacks who - despite dealing with starting in a poor black household and lacked a father/mother in their lives - made it and have a decent life for ourselves.

Let me tell you that NO ONE likes us. You all talk-the-talk about uplifting, but when the time comes to celebrate blacks who have did something for themselves, unless we succeeded in sports or rapping, we're seen as absolute sell-outs and uncle toms! This is to both most black males and females in this so-called "community." I'm going to say this now, and I don't care if you call me an arrogant f***: It's educated and non-ghetto blacks that the "black community" need to cherish and embrace! There were some of us who grew up with the same preset disadvantages, were told just to "blame the white man" for all our failures, and didn't have the best access to a lot of things. But IN SPITE of all the curve-balls thrown to us, a few of us made it! And to add the icing to the cake, a lot of us grew up with the "black community" calling us sell-outs and whiteys just because we wanted to make a better life for ourselves.

And what do we have as a reward for uplifting our own lives? Hatred from everyone! Hatred from the single parents because of pure envy and jealously. Hatred from the young blacks (usually from the single households) because we have no "street cred" and betray our race by getting educated and not living off of welfare/section 8. Hatred from the middle-aged blacks because either it took 10 times longer for them to get where we are, or we're making more money in our 20s than they do in their mid 40s. Hatred from the old blacks because we didn't buy into the "plantation mentality" of life (although not as much thanks to some of the elder blacks who still fight the good fight and believe in hard work and dignity, although their numbers are dwindling down). If we live in a place that's in the Deep South or job-destitute parts of the Midwest (or Chicago for that matter as well), we're hated by whites because we didn't become a statistic or didn't end up staying in the ghetto. And if we're from the Northeast, we're hated by every other ethnicity because either they can't feel sorry for us, we're a threat to their position, or they can't find a reason to see us as inferior (trust me, 90 percent of these East Coast liberal whites/Asians/Indians/Middle Easterners will find any way to belittle the most educated of blacks).

Instead of giving us the graceful embrace that we rightfully deserve, we're given the complete shaft. And unless we live in the Western States (or one of the few non-racist places outside of the West), there's no alternative social outlet, and hence we're totally hated by everyone. To those who say "there's another college arrogant educated black man going off again," plenty of whites, Latinos, and ESPECIALLY Asians, Indians, and Middle Easterners praise, celebrate, and honor their legitimately successful and educated like there's no tomorrow! The blacks....unless you're from a middle-upper income black family (which in that case, is probably become more multiracial, mostly for the reasons explained by me and others in this thread), there's no form of positive recognition!

Maybe that's why we're experiencing a cycle of failure: because these young black kids are realizing how the best and brightest are being treated, and their community teaches them how aspiring to be successful outside of sports and entertainment will get you socially alienated to the point of years of abandonment and eventual self-hatred of the black race! And if it comes down to it, which is usually is the case for more non-ghetto blacks, can you blame them for having just a bit of self-hatred? Not to say it's right, but what the hell else do you expect!

....

You know what. I just thought of a good idea for reparations: For all of the non-ghetto blacks who are educated, successful, and holding our own, their should be a social system. A system to allow blacks who want to (and don't fall into the poor/ghetto/militant stereotype) to just leave. Fund it with reallocating all of that money from welfare and section 8, and tax the living s*** out of all forms of gangsta rap and all of the other "black entertainment" garbage that does more harm than good. Leave the plantation-minded South. Leave the hypocritical Northeast. Let us work in places where WE won't have to deal with this nonsense of "blacks v. whites" this, "black men v. black women" that, and the "you gotta do da thug life to remain loyal to your race BS" in between. Let us just GO. Go to places like Seattle, Denver, and San Diego where they don't have to worry about race (at least as much). And to take advantage of globalization, let us leave the country entirely. Let us go to places like the UK where they see blacks as the "Model Minority" and Canada (i.e. America minus racism towards blacks). Let us go to Asian countries where they will see us more as Americans than blacks. Please, just please, let the rest of us - who have gotten over the damage that the Whites AND BLACKS did to us - just LEAVE! Besides, if us non-ghetto blacks were gone, everyone in America would be happy: the ghetto/poor/militant blacks wouldn't have to worry about a part of their race not keeping loyalty to the blacks. The racist whites would just be happy....in general. And we would never have to deal with this "poor ol' me" mentality BS....ever....again!

This is a very passionate and thoughtful response, and essentially highlights the frustration felt by many an assimilated black male who gets it from all sides whether or not he decides to play by the rules. I think the main reason is fear. People fear what they don't understand, and the black male who gainsays collective or societal definitions of what it means to be a black man simply defies conventional understanding, which elicits fear and anxiety in some people. The brother who's brave enough to challenge essentialist notions of innate black inferiority threatens to upset the social balance (hierarchy) that by design maintains him at the very bottom. And that makes many with a vested interest in maintaining this structure uncomfortable indeed.

I would liken it to being on a staircase, where whites are at the top, threatened by your presence, ready to push you back down "in your place" if you get too high up. The "middle minorities" are in the middle, rushing forward to achieve white status at all costs, pushing you aside along the way. And then you have those blacks who, afflicted with a persistent "down and out" mentality, wallow at the bottom, willing to pull you back down for the sake of being "down with your people" (ie, 'authentically' black) should you get too uppity. The constant tension can be maddening.

My solution is simple: Get off the damn staircase altogether and take the elevator that no one knows about.

[DMoon]

Originally Posted by abrown17

I'm still not seeing how what you're saying ties into my earlier statement. I've never heard Black men speaking about the Kirstie Allie phenomenon. Actually, i think it is the men who elevate these women regardless of how unattractive they may be simply due to their race.

My observations are easy to verify—look around these boards or the net or Black acquantitaces. Just because you have not seen or heard of this phenomenon doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Which is why I mentioned Kristie Alley—because she was the one that stated publicly –even though she was joking, that it would be easier for her to get with Black men than a White man, being as she had gained a tremendous amount of weight and Black men supposedly go for “thick” women whereas White men usually don’t. She wouldn’t have joked about it—in which she received some fallout from it—if the phenomenon wasn't there to begin with. Also she was but one example of that presumption.

Once again, someone who views another race as inferior is unlikely to date someone of that race.

No. If that were the case, Black Americans wouldn’t have had European admixture in their family tree. Whites back then saw Blacks as inferior but they had no problems sleeping with them. Same goes with Black prostitutes (it’s easy to reference)—who have stated that their biggest customers were often white guys who would never dream of dating or marrying them in real life. You also have fetishers, that fetish races, but would never marry, etc. People form relationships, and date people all the time even though they don’t respect their, gender, race, orientation or religion.

This is nowhere near the crunch Black women who exclusively date Black men are feeling. There is a big difference in the number of unmarried White women to Black women.

Granted—however many Black women will engage in unmarried unions, which is usually not taken into consideration. Even so, with the high divorce rate—White women are finding themselves single at greater rates then in the past and the available pool of men of which they find suitable are a lot smaller—so the original observation still stands.

Oh really? White women are held up as the WORLDWIDE model of femininity and desirability, while Black women are portrayed as unsuitable mates even within their own race. Let's not forget about white-skin privilege. Do you honestly think Black and White women carry the same currency in the dating world?

Noted. They are the standard of what is seen as beautiful—certainly. And I agree that Black women are viewed quite differently and negatively by other races—I am not disputing that reality. I am only emphasizing that some White women have a set of challenges that in some ways mirror Black women, which emphasized the universal dilemnna of acquiring education, a career, and financial independence, yet unable to find a suitable partner.

Black American women are usually not in the economic position to pick up and relocate to a foreign country at the same rate as White women

Granted again—however I also stated that there are eligible African and Caribbean immigrants in America who would quite possibly meet her criteria if she couldn’t find a suitable American counterpart. In addition, traveling is still an attainable goal on a modest budget—thus if a Black woman really wanted to expand her horizons, then she can reasonably and realistically expand them across the Atlantic.

What does this have to do with finding a man? Men do not use the same criteria to select a mate that women do, so I don't see how a woman's wealth is a major factor in terms of a man pursuing her

It is understood that Men in general are not going to initially eliminate a woman based on her bank account, but being financially solvent and stable are criteria that men do judge women if he is getting serious. Therefore Black women who complain that there are no good Black men left, often emphasize their degrees and their financial independence as positive characteristics as to why they are a good catch. And since we are in an economic downturn—being financially solvent and pulling your own weight are things that some guys do screen for.

White women are staying within their race, however their needs are being met. White men generally provide for, protect and uphold the women of their race. There is an unspoken contract there. So I don't see it as the same situation where Black women continue to hold onto loyalty for men who do not provide for or protect them or their children.

Not all the time-if you reference the high divorce rate, Black women only outpace White women by 2-4% and the number decreases significantly when you go to upper-middle and upper class Blacks. Yes we do tend to engage in unmarried relationships more so than White women, but the divorce rate has increased across racial lines in the past 30 years. In addition, divorce often leaves the women in a precarious situation in which her class status—can go down from from middle to lower class for instance and White women are dealing with dead beat dads or no alimony—so the safety net that may have been available to them within their community has eroded considerably (the bankruptcy stats are an eye opener along racial lines) is not as strong as it once was. So they are still loyal and prefer their own men even though the rules have made finding a suitable partner, much harder. The same goes for Black women.

Originally Posted by abrown17

That is an exception and not the rule. Most Black women do not even place themselves in social situations where there are non-Blacks.

There are far more Black women who end up being the only Black person in all white situations from school, work to social settings. This can be seen if she is in college and its not an HBCU, or in a career that has very few minorities. In addition, in order to advance you often have to network. So Black women have to socialize, which means once again being the only Black women in many social situations, therefore if the Black women is already slanted to screen for a wide variety of men, it stands to reason, that who she may like-- may not always be Black.

To conclude I don’t see Black women as victims and I don’t think that the usual tired stereotypes of Black women with bad attitudes, being fat, and ghetto, followed by our inability to access these wide borders as the reason why we can’t find a good X someone. I do see far more intact, thriving Black families than not and even though there are serious structural and familial problems in the Black community I don’t see nihilistic dystopian reality of wholesale abandonment by black men that is being illustrated in this thread as to why Black women are not getting their needs met. Racism and disinterest are at the root cause of some Black women issues, therefore once again--agree to disagree.

[Do a Barrel Roll]

Originally Posted by MeetMeinSTL

Hatred from who? Sorry that your family is full of a bunch of haters, but that's not our problem. You just have a jealous family. That's a family problem not a Black problem. I see more hatred when a person is NOT educated. Sounds like you came from the ghetto and it got to you. Move on. Oh, and maybe I'm misunderstanding your post or you're just in a ranting mood but running away will never solve anything in America or Black culture. I used to live in San Diego and race is an issue everywhere. Less so in California yes, but you can't run away. You're still a Black American and you have to deal with that. I'm just sitting here wondering, if people on this forum are all talk. I have a feeling that a lot of people here aren't doing their part. Most here are probably promiscuous or came from a one parent household. Guaranteed that they're falling into the same stereotypes they claim to be against.

1) Don't belittle the issue I'm bringing up. This goes WAY beyond my family. For it's something I always have dealt with from a lot of blacks in general. Either from the jealous and bitter blacks who are directly responsible, or from the blacks who try to sweep it under the floor like it's just a "family issue"!

And no wonder why blacks haven't made any true progress since the 70s!

2) The point is in San Diego, race issues were "less" of a problem. Whether it's 1 percent less or 99 percent less (which, for these areas, the less one makes their race their defining characteristic, the less a problem race issues are), it's still LESS of an issue! And that's the main point of my post of blacks who are "over it" looking for a better place to live. And if you're going to use the argument "the more blacks there are, the more issues they'll be," I'm only proposing this to the best, brightest, and assimilated of blacks! This isn't proposing to move the impoverished minority subculture or black separatists to places with less blacks, they can stay in the NYC, Chi-Town, ATL, and DC.

Originally Posted by MrSykes

This is a very passionate and thoughtful response, and essentially highlights the frustration felt by many an assimilated black male who gets it from all sides whether or not he decides to play by the rules. I think the main reason is fear. People fear what they don't understand, and the black male who gainsays collective or societal definitions of what it means to be a black man simply defies conventional understanding, which elicits fear and anxiety in some people. The brother who's brave enough to challenge essentialist notions of innate black inferiority threatens to upset the social balance (hierarchy) that by design maintains him at the very bottom. And that makes many with a vested interest in maintaining this structure uncomfortable indeed.

I would liken it to being on a staircase, where whites are at the top, threatened by your presence, ready to push you back down "in your place" if you get too high up. The "middle minorities" are in the middle, rushing forward to achieve white status at all costs, pushing you aside along the way. And then you have those blacks who, afflicted with a persistent "down and out" mentality, wallow at the bottom, willing to pull you back down for the sake of being "down with your people" (ie, 'authentically' black) should you get too uppity. The constant tension can be maddening.

My solution is simple: Get off the damn staircase altogether and take the elevator that no one knows about.

Only one problem: economically speaking, the "places" that are elevators have nothing much at the top at this time. The people at the "elevator states & cities" are struggling themselves to get to the top be because the elevator itself is temporarily broken. As for going to the really far off elevators, getting the "passports" to go there isn't as easy as one may think, and the jobs on top aren't that available for even the people native to those escalators.

Hope you can follow my metaphors I'm throwing.

[xsthomas]

''Good black men''. I think thats called an oxymoron.

[Chowhound]

Originally Posted by xsthomas

''Good black men''. I think thats called an oxymoron.

Take it easy there sir.


Where are the whites, still at the cleaners???

[Ron.]

Originally Posted by xsthomas

''Good black men''. I think thats called an oxymoron.

WOW man.......you really need to check yourself.


Ron

[Hoarfrost]

Originally Posted by MeetMeinSTL

Nobody should be forced to date anybody. You're avoiding the point. Many Black men date outside of their race because they're suffering from Black self hatred. The truth is the truth. You all can continue to beat around the bush and change the subject all you want.

"It's true because I say it's true and because I say it's true it's true and if you don't believe it's true you're in denial!"

Omg I am so convinced.

[Ron.]

Originally Posted by MeetMeinSTL

Many Black men date outside of their race because they're suffering from Black self hatred.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!


LOLOLOLOL...........that's funny. If a black guy dates someone that is not black, he hates his own race?! WOW..........

You're a real classy guy/gal??

[samston]

Originally Posted by Chowhound

This thread is way heavy.

The black community has plenty of issues. that is no new news.

[Kazz]

Please let this thread die.