Did feminism ruin relationships between men and women? (romantic, California, Wisconsin)
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Thanks Black Jack, you just shed some light on the previous statement about laws. It hasnt been so long ago that men were allowed to hit/beat women without any legal consenquenses. So I see the dv laws have benefited women.
I remeber those school years. I think they called that flirting. Not the same.
I dont know about the research, but I can see where that may be true being mothers are raising the children.
As far as male victims, read braunwyns comments. If men dont come forward how are they to get recognition. Women do get arrested for hitting men and charged with dv. My brother is a cop and has arrested many women for dv. As a matter of fact if the cops are called on a domestic someone IS going to jail. Who is determined by witnesses, who hit first and who looks like the got the worst end of it. Now what the courts do is a crap shoot.
Now to address all the sexy happy homemakers. I think it is wonderful you are out there and I believe there are many women envious of your situation. The reality is, it is not every womans want and just not obtainable for some women due to finances, divorce, death, abusive husbands, etc. But isnt it nice knowing if that life dosent work out for you, you have the right and are on equal footing to persue an alternative life. You wont have to move in with relatives and farm out your children. And dont think that women who work do not also cook and clean take care of their children and make their man happy.
Well that is wrong obviously but even though men are the victimizers and has been we still should not ignore what is happening to men. Do not use the whole, "well men commit more crimes" or "men USED to get away with x, y and z". It is hard for you to symphathize with those of us talking about abuse of men simply because men have been the victimizers. Keep in mind that throughout history men also abused men, not only women.
No, girls do HIT boys in schools as hard as it is for you to believe.
It's not that simple. Society gives women more expression when it comes to talking about problems. Society tells men "take it like a man". Society has failed to provide a safe place like it has for women for men, that's why more men do not report it. Women take advantage of the fact that it is embedded in this society that it is wrong to hit a woman.
As many women as your brother has arrested for beating on men, there are still many more women who get away with it and the numbers are even higher I suspect.
I think it is obvious that motherhood has not even been remotely glamorized recently.
I don't know what this is supposed to mean either. Glamorized? Are you looking for media blitz? As others have noted in this thread, it's likely a lot of this drama is coming from commentators on the boob tube.
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I know you do. That was popular in the 90s especially since I specifically was exposed to it academically. Its obsolete. Socialization is not all there is to it.
It's obsolete according to who?
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Actually what I do is make statements and back them up with context and references. I believe the last one was a cultural context.
Your link makes a number of points. I'm at work, and cannot address them all, but will later. For now, let me point out that this 2005 article is dated. For one, it notes the math gap in HS between boys and girls in the US IIRC. As of 2007 this gap has pretty much closed. Something to consider...
"The No Child Left Behind program forced states to administer standardized tests broadly. The team led by Hyde, drawn from faculty at the University of Wisconsin and the University of California, Berkeley, contacted all 50 states to try to get access to these scores, but only 10 gave them enough information to make their samples useful. Based on test scores for 7 million students, the research team found no difference in the average math scores; this seemed to be the culmination of a trend of girls steadily gaining ground in math scores, first among younger age groups and recently through adolescence."
...
Math and reading gaps and gender equality globally
In fact, the story of the change in the ‘math gap’ in the United States seems to mirror a pattern that is also seen across cultures: changing status of women seems to correlate pretty strongly with the math gap. When women are treated more equally, it shows up in girls’ math scores. Studies of students in different societies show that the difference between boys’ and girls’ averages is not constant, and can be reversed. The Economist recently ran a story on gender achievement gaps in different places based on another Science report by Luigi Guiso of the European University Institute in Florence and colleagues: Diversity: Culture, Gender, and Math." Girls closing math gap?: Troubles with intelligence #1 « Neuroanthropology
I'm sure SAT scoring will follow suit. The only real difference now is not a matter of brain structure, but exposure to stimulus. Btw, you're doing exactly what I accused you of earlier when you were asking for quotes. Consider your entire post quoted for future referance.
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I did not learn it from a chef. I just saw Juila. Julia Child happens to be a personal hero of mine.
Point missed. ok.
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It does not appear that you have a clinical psychology degree because you don't seem to be familiar with inferential statistics. You would certainly have approached my chess example differently. You would have gone after validity as a representative sample. You could not possibly have the same exposure. Psychological research is all about population tendencies and you eschew these principles. Again, I don't see this major female shift. I don't see women rigging up their home with X-10 devices. I just don't see it. They are not interested even as much as men would love that they would be interested.
I tend to skip over your gaming examples, so I'm not sure what you're referring to. What can I tell you. I have a psych degree. I took 6 or 7 statistics classes in college. Psych research must be approached with caution. I do not blindly buy into it. The stats can get very creative. They most often are. Interpretation can vary and bias is difficult to avoid.
Any way, you don't see this major shift in a timely enough manner. The shift women have made in the last 50 years is, again, so extraordinary. The closing HS math gap is one of the first steps. Lets see what happens IF parents decide to buy their daughters erector sets with the easy bake ovens. They might be molding people with out-of-the norm interests.
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That is your personal experience. As Onglet posted, she was told the world was her oyster.
The two have little to do with eachother. How you attempt to weave these two separate issues together I don't understand. Being told "you can be anything" doesn't lend to the exposure I'm speaking of. I was told you can be anything too, while in school. But, that doesn't cancel the constant message from society that women lack aptitude for this or that field. Barbies first words in the 80s? "math is hard". Again, c'mon.
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I buy into research methods and results. The results are that men do not differ from women just in height, strength, facial hair and reproduction. Its like barbarians not believing there is a such thing as radio waves because they can't see it.
No one is saying that men and women do not differ. Is that what you think I'm saying? Can you show me where I communicated this so I can take measures not to repeat the guilty terms? Of course they differ in many ways. None of this means that women lack capacity, ability, etc. We might take a different route when travelling from A to B, but we can arrive at B. And that has nothing to do with men, it's simply a matter of arriving at B without having to deal with darts that are meant to throw people off course.
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"I am unlikely to grasp", "people like you" are terms of bellicosity.
Whatever you are insulted over I'm sure has everything to do with you, and your gender issues, rather than my statements.
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This forum has been a train wreck of character assaults, worthless anecdotes and obfuscations. I am sorry I had to draw the line here. I generally rather like you as I have communicated before.
It makes no difference to me, gwyn. I won't allow anyone to control the direction of my dialog. You think you can twack the little woman into submission? LOL get real and lighten up.
Well that is wrong obviously but even though men are the victimizers and has been we still should not ignore what is happening to men. Do not use the whole, "well men commit more crimes" or "men USED to get away with x, y and z". It is hard for you to symphathize with those of us talking about abuse of men simply because men have been the victimizers. Keep in mind that throughout history men also abused men, not only women.
No, girls do HIT boys in schools as hard as it is for you to believe.
It's not that simple. Society gives women more expression when it comes to talking about problems. Society tells men "take it like a man". Society has failed to provide a safe place like it has for women for men, that's why more men do not report it. Women take advantage of the fact that it is embedded in this society that it is wrong to hit a woman.
As many women as your brother has arrested for beating on men, there are still many more women who get away with it and the numbers are even higher I suspect.
Who is ignoring it. Men have to report it for anything to be done. It is not a matter of what use to be. We are talking about the here and now. Ive know my share of men who have been abused and victimized by women. I have sat in court and listened to the crap that passed for dv and agree often it is unfair and blow out of proportion but If women are not call on this behavior it will continue to go un-noticed. You realize it was once the same for women, no one to report it to, no where to go. Women spoke up, showed there was a need for change and something got done. Men have to do the same.
Im not saying girls dont hit boys. The punch in the arm is hardly what we are talking about as dv. Girls also get suspended from school for hitting other boys or girls.
And of course women get away with it if their victims dont report it. I could have had my ex arrested several times for dv if I had called the police but I didnt.
Your link makes a number of points. I'm at work, and cannot address them all, but will later. For now, let me point out that this 2005 article is dated. For one, it notes the math gap in HS between boys and girls in the US IIRC. As of 2007 this gap has pretty much closed. Something to consider...
"The No Child Left Behind program forced states to administer standardized tests broadly. The team led by Hyde, drawn from faculty at the University of Wisconsin and the University of California, Berkeley, contacted all 50 states to try to get access to these scores, but only 10 gave them enough information to make their samples useful. Based on test scores for 7 million students, the research team found no difference in the average math scores; this seemed to be the culmination of a trend of girls steadily gaining ground in math scores, first among younger age groups and recently through adolescence."
...
Math and reading gaps and gender equality globally
In fact, the story of the change in the ‘math gap’ in the United States seems to mirror a pattern that is also seen across cultures: changing status of women seems to correlate pretty strongly with the math gap. When women are treated more equally, it shows up in girls’ math scores. Studies of students in different societies show that the difference between boys’ and girls’ averages is not constant, and can be reversed. The Economist recently ran a story on gender achievement gaps in different places based on another Science report by Luigi Guiso of the European University Institute in Florence and colleagues: Diversity: Culture, Gender, and Math." Girls closing math gap?: Troubles with intelligence #1 « Neuroanthropology
I'm sure SAT scoring will follow suit. The only real difference now is not a matter of brain structure, but exposure to stimulus. Btw, you're doing exactly what I accused you of earlier when you were asking for quotes. Consider your entire post quoted for future referance.
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Hi Braunwyn,
Since I am really not interested in the personal aspects constantly introduced , I will focus on such things where I do. 2005 is a mere 5 years old and the pure socialization paradigm is 25 years old. I hold test scores, that you cite, in academia with as much skepticism as statistical analysis because of the desire for outcome. Its not that I don't believe it, but I know there are many forces at work. I have never denied socialization does not play a role. What I do know is interest in a field leads to success in that field, and that includes what we consider toys in childhood.
I will grant this may have little significance on individuals, but we are talking about social engineering. There are not vast differences until applied to a population.
So what are the implications? What If I am wrong and men and women are equal? I surmise that we will not help women be equal and slow the progress of the eventuality. However at some point women's equal nature will reach equilibrium. We will see a 50% across the board population. There will be just as many female Linux kernel maintainers as there are 50% male nurses. The clear momentum, as you cite, is with you. Its only a matter of velocity.
What if I am right? We will continually see inequality to the ignorance of equity. Outcomes will always disappoint and remedy after remedy of social engineering will take place until we see the desired outcome. Given that we have not allowed the free and natural flow, it will be the output of central planning and lack of private initiative. Men will take roles that they fail to thrive in as will women. We will have a somewhat dystopian society.
I think the real problem is that men dont enforce gender neutral laws to prevent violence against men...Ive said it before: other men are really some of the biggest hindrances to gender equality.
Men can report all of the Domestic abuse cases they want...but if the MEN in charge (since currently the majority of people who make laws are still men), and the MEN who enforce the laws dont take them seriously, then reporting the incidents is meaningless. MEN are complicit in gender inequality and discrimination against men. Thats the biggest problem imo.
Violence is never right. But you have men who take will take it upon themselves to subdue a man who is fighting with a woman, yet those same men will watch two men tear each other to smitherines, or who will watch a woman claw a mans face to shreds.
Men in the aggregate are being irresponsible for their own situation. Unlike women who support one another's decisions, and realize that there is more than one way to be a woman...there is a divide among men due to the competitive nature of the species. You have men who still buy into this whole alpha beta male crap, or those men who believe that x, y, z makes a man a pansy while A, B, C, makes a male a "real man" or whatever. As long as that divide exists, there will never really be gender equality. Because under our current social constructs, some men will always take it upon themselves to protect women while trampling weak men at will in order to appear "dominant". And truthfully, dominance is rewarded by women, who it appears to the casual observer, dont play a role in the divide. But actually, they are very complicit in this divide, and it is silently encouraged and rewarded by their selection of those dominant men. I personally think it is the foremost driving factor in how men conduct themselves in society.
I dont know that this is either good nor bad. It kind of just is. Generally in nature its always been that way...and I suspect it always will be. (there are always minor exceptions whereby females protect herds, or males raise offspring etc...exceptions dont displace the norm in this instance.)
Last edited by solytaire; 01-22-2010 at 01:00 PM..
Okay.......here's the hole in the above theory. I'm not saying the theory is wrong, the trouble is, these studies weren't done on infants....brains young enough to NOT have been shaped by society. If these studies were done on infants who have been raised in a non-sexual setting, taught exactly the same things....with NO gender assignments...would these brains exhibit the same patterns no the MRIs? Here's an interesting link to add to the discussion. Symmetry Of Homosexual Brain Resembles That Of Opposite Sex, Swedish Study Finds
Since I am really not interested in the personal aspects constantly introduced , I will focus on such things where I do. 2005 is a mere 5 years old and the pure socialization paradigm is 25 years old. I hold test scores, that you cite, in academia with as much skepticism as statistical analysis because of the desire for outcome. Its not that I don't believe it, but I know there are many forces at work.
You provided the link making the referance in an attempt to infer...? I'm not sure yet. Perhaps preferance or innate ability. This still needs to be fleshed out. Any way, 7 million test scores that challenge the hashed and re-hashed ^10 claim of HS and SAT math scores as evidence of innate ability is a problem now? You linked the article noting this. Not me. I'm showing it's boloney.
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I have never denied socialization does not play a role. What I do know is interest in a field leads to success in that field, and that includes what we consider toys in childhood.
Sure, that's reasonable. As mentioned, there's been on going discussion of the role gender oriented toys play for young girls, and how parents influence play. Again, if girls are being given dolls and easy bake ovens, that's their exposure. Toys are gender typed (to state the obvious). How can a point be made about girls en masse regarding toys they are never exposed to?
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Again we just see it more and more.
That differences exist, which has not been argued. Your link does not provide any type of evidence related to aptitude. I fail to see the point here.
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So what are the implications? What If I am wrong and men and women are equal? I surmise that we will not help women be equal and slow the progress of the eventuality. However at some point women's equal nature will reach equilibrium. We will see a 50% across the board population. There will be just as many female Linux kernel maintainers as there are 50% male nurses. The clear momentum, as you cite, is with you. Its only a matter of velocity.
The latter is the case, but a point of saturation is unknown at this point. In the past, it was clear that women did not have the intellectual apititude to become physicians. A few decades later, females are out pacing men. Decades ago women did not have the aptitude for any of the sciences (and I'm not including social sciences). Now, ~ 50% of BS and MS degrees in the biological and chemical sciences are held/obtained by women. It stands to reason the greater of % of male phd's in these fields is not a matter of innate ability. There are social factors going on as to why women opt out. The preferance argument certainly has merit, the innate ability argument does not. Again, all of this ground covered despite social pressures to twart women. It spot lights how able women really are and then some.
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What if I am right? We will continually see inequality to the ignorance of equity. Outcomes will always disappoint and remedy after remedy of social engineering will take place until we see the desired outcome. Given that we have not allowed the free and natural flow, it will be the output of central planning and lack of private initiative. Men will take roles that they fail to thrive in as will women. We will have a somewhat dystopian society.
Men have been saying what if and I am right IRT this issue for hundreds of years (if not more). The evidence that continues to surface debunks these myths. The outcomes are promising thus far. We are socially evolving and it's a uncomfortable process for many, which is understandable. But, change is and will continue to happen. The sky will not fall any differently than previously predicted.
Who is ignoring it. Men have to report it for anything to be done. It is not a matter of what use to be. We are talking about the here and now. Ive know my share of men who have been abused and victimized by women. I have sat in court and listened to the crap that passed for dv and agree often it is unfair and blow out of proportion but If women are not call on this behavior it will continue to go un-noticed. You realize it was once the same for women, no one to report it to, no where to go. Women spoke up, showed there was a need for change and something got done. Men have to do the same.
Im not saying girls dont hit boys. The punch in the arm is hardly what we are talking about as dv. Girls also get suspended from school for hitting other boys or girls.
And of course women get away with it if their victims dont report it. I could have had my ex arrested several times for dv if I had called the police but I didnt.
It's not as easy as saying "well men should just report it" though. As a young 19 year old I was physically beaten with an object by my then girlfriend that caused me to have several stitches above my eye. And when my family asked what happened, I lied and said I got a head injury in a game of football. I wasn't comfortable coming forward, for lots of reasons. I was shattered and emotionally scarred at the time.
And Solytaire hit the nail on the head. Often it's other men making it hard for abused men to come forward. Women support each other when it comes to domestic violence. Men don't support each other as much.
It's not as easy as saying "well men should just report it" though. As a young 19 year old I was physically beaten with an object by my then girlfriend that caused me to have several stitches above my eye. And when my family asked what happened, I lied and said I got a head injury in a game of football. I wasn't comfortable coming forward, for lots of reasons. I was shattered and emotionally scarred at the time.
And Solytaire hit the nail on the head. Often it's other men making it hard for abused men to come forward. Women support each other when it comes to domestic violence. Men don't support each other as much.
And?????? No one said it was easy. Women at one time suffered the same. First, it was once legal for a husband to beat his wife. Second, women were also embarrassed to tell anyone they were being abused and some still are. They were often chastized by other women. Heard the, she must have deserved it, she dosent know her place, she must not be a good wife, etc.
Im not saying its fair and Im not saying its easy, but people have had to fight for equal rights, rights and equality have never been given to freely. Why do you think it should be any different in this case.
And Solytaire hit the nail on the head. Often it's other men making it hard for abused men to come forward. Women support each other when it comes to domestic violence. Men don't support each other as much.
I think/hope times are changing. I certainly support men coming forth if they're being abused, and I'm sure every woman I know would be supportive as well.
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