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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngletNYC
Wow, you women just can't handle a discussion that isn't a part of your point of view without doing a little shin-kicking, eh? Well let's just say I am not surprised. After all the whole platform has nothing to do with equality, so why would you want to address someone who opposes you as an equal? The mere whiff of a differing opinion isn't tolerating and the person must be marginalized, ie "anyone who agrees with you is sad." I am astounded you can't see what you are doing. I didn't think things were this bad; you are proving its worse than I thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozgal
ha ha
You don't see women as equals.
Too bad for you.
Actually, what she is talking about is equality. What most of the other women talk about here is never ending victim hood, using examples from many decades ago that we are all familiar with. Even then, they weren't the norm, but reasonable people made changes and for the most part, they have ended.
This constant harking back to these slights of history, is just a way for many feminists to extract more rights and benefits without much responsibility. Responsibility is now something that men must consider first and foremost before they make a relationship mistake and the feminists have ensured that the power of the state is at their beck and call to enforce this should they do so. This is not the equality that many envisaged in the early years of modern feminism and many men are seriously questioning why they should have any interest in participating in the very uneven playing field that has now been created. Most do very well by avoiding it altogether.
Apparently, only those who know true oppression are worthy of equality
I don't know the kind of oppression that women in the third world know but I know that, in my own world, I am not treated fairly. And YES I will fight to end that injustice. If I could fight for rights for women worldwide, I would but the fact that someone else is worse off than me won't stop me from fighting for what is right for me.
Using the excuse that we don't know oppression would be like telling someone serving 5 years for a crime he didn't commit that he shouldn't complain because there is someone else serving life for a crime they didn't commit. That someone else is worse off than me has nothing to do with that I deserve to be treated fairly. I find the idea that I should accept some injustice because others have it worse, truely, ignorant.
I vote for no oppression. I pray for the day when no woman knows oppression. You are correct. The objective is to avoid oppression by providing opportunty. Women deserve the same opportunties men have. There is nothing about us that makes us less deserving.
Please explain to me how you are oppressed in the United states today. Tell me of these opportunities you do not have because you are a woman. Unless you grew up in the Eastern block or some Third world country or maybe are an older black person ( I can go on...), you have never been oppressed. It is not an excuse, It is a fact. No woman is oppressed in this country today because they are female. It is only a tactic used by your brand of feminism to advance their true agenda which is getting preferential treatment by law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OngletNYC
Wow, you women just can't handle a discussion that isn't a part of your point of view without doing a little shin-kicking, eh? Well let's just say I am not surprised. After all the whole platform has nothing to do with equality, so why would you want to address someone who opposes you as an equal? The mere whiff of a differing opinion isn't tolerating and the person must be marginalized, ie "anyone who agrees with you is sad." I am astounded you can't see what you are doing. I didn't think things were this bad; you are proving its worse than I thought.
Actually, what she is talking about is equality. What most of the other women talk about here is never ending victim hood, using examples from many decades ago that we are all familiar with. Even then, they weren't the norm, but reasonable people made changes and for the most part, they have ended.
This constant harking back to these slights of history, is just a way for many feminists to extract more rights and benefits without much responsibility. Responsibility is now something that men must consider first and foremost before they make a relationship mistake and the feminists have ensured that the power of the state is at their beck and call to enforce this should they do so. This is not the equality that many envisaged in the early years of modern feminism and many men are seriously questioning why they should have any interest in participating in the very uneven playing field that has now been created. Most do very well by avoiding it altogether.
You don't see the problem with your statement of "extract more rights and benefits" ... what responsbility are women trying to avoid?
Power of the state? You're referring to divorce & family law?
The equality that many envisioned is that women would not stay in abusive marriages due to dependence on the man due to their situation of being a woman. Having financial independence. Having the choice in life to control what happens to them. Being educated to the same levels of man, being employed and then, eventually being paid the same...... so what is the uneven playing field, exactly?
You don't see the problem with your statement of "extract more rights and benefits" ... what responsbility are women trying to avoid?
Power of the state? You're referring to divorce & family law?
The equality that many envisioned is that women would not stay in abusive marriages due to dependence on the man due to their situation of being a woman. Having financial independence. Having the choice in life to control what happens to them. Being educated to the same levels of man, being employed and then, eventually being paid the same...... so what is the uneven playing field, exactly?
women are strong in 2 areas, marriage/divorce and employment.
EEOC laws have mostly benefited white females.
marriage/divorce laws have mostly benefited white females.
revoking the laws will never happen but every man can do something about the marriage/divorce rip off, stop getting married. i cant very well fault women--- after 42 million divorces (since 1975 -- mostly filed by women, i would have expected men to brighten up just a tad.
You don't see the problem with your statement of "extract more rights and benefits" ... what responsibility are women trying to avoid?
The most obvious one is the responsibility to make good decisions about who you marry and why. This is a major shift from more than 50 years ago. Women may have faced severe problems with some husbands then but most were more careful about the type of man that they married and on balance, this worked out better. Now, they are bailed out in so many ways that there is little interest in selecting good men, just those who meet their need for immediate gratification, since they believe that they will not suffer any ill consequences and will always get a second chance. The latter is obviously not the case for those with children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozgal
Power of the state? You're referring to divorce & family law?
In part. There is an entire set of laws, taxes and societal actions designed to funnel ever more money from men to women. Some men are wondering how long before there are additional taxes specifically on single men to give greater support to women they won't marry. Of course, this won't be described this way when it is introduced in legislatures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozgal
The equality that many envisioned is that women would not stay in abusive marriages due to dependence on the man due to their situation of being a woman. Having financial independence. Having the choice in life to control what happens to them. Being educated to the same levels of man, being employed and then, eventually being paid the same...... so what is the uneven playing field, exactly?
This occurred decades ago but it wasn't good enough for women so they demanded equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. A classic is the equal pay for equal work scam described earlier. Somehow, women but not men doing jobs were not paid enough because a formula says so. Nobody ever asks the obvious question: why didn't you change jobs, if the other required less skills and paid more.
The truthful answer is something like: "I liked being a clerk more than a sewer worker."
There was an amusing real life example of this. Tax dept. had female clerks who, while they make considerably more that those in the private sector were supposedly being discriminated against.
Meanwhile, senior tax auditors, some of whom bring in billion dollar adjustments could leave for 3 to 5 times the pay. The only thing that keeps most of them is their hatred of tax cheats that they developed as a young accountant.
The clerks did a number of things - order supplies, file forms, organize manager, etc.
Tax auditors only one - audit.
A formula was applied and it was determined that other employees with less skill were paid more. Most of these jobs involved demanding outside work in winter weather, but skills are skills.
The courts bought this and awarded the women clerks a large compensation package.
The formula used was applied to the auditors and it found that they were overpaid by 30 percent and the clerks should have been making more than them. More idiocy of feminism.
Everywhere from Wall Street to when they hire nannies, maids and gardeners. The average upper middle class and especially upper class feminist hardly cares about the poor in her own country. There is lip service about child care and maternity leave but since they don't need it unlike the poor, it is not a priority, not even an interest.
I'm in an upper class world of educated, hard working women. I work along side big sisters, reach out and read volunteers, folk involved in their communities. The fact that you and Onglet hang out with trash says more about you than anyone else.
I also don't buy for one second that anybody is standing around peer pressuring women of lower means to have sex willy nilly, to enter idiotic marriages, to not take responsibility for whatever decisions they make. Add whatever she has on her list of why her life is crappy.
Quote:
Finding new ways to force men into paying long after a marriage ends is a priority and for instance, has the women's bar assn in Massachusetts up in arms. The movement today seems much more about squeezing the shriveled lemon rather than growing opportunities for most women.
The plight of women in the Third World, as shown in earlier posts is mainly used as a way to bash and shame already guiltless men here, to further extract even more.
Redneck, really, take your shaming language blame game and dish it out to someone else. I simply don't and won't buy into arguments coming from supposed grown adults that their lives are comprised of a load of sh*t because of feminism or anything else. You are a victim. Oh, how we all get it. You are the one claiming oppression. You are complaining constantly. That's what I see.
Please explain to me how you are oppressed in the United states today. Tell me of these opportunities you do not have because you are a woman. Unless you grew up in the Eastern block or some Third world country or maybe are an older black person ( I can go on...), you have never been oppressed. It is not an excuse, It is a fact. No woman is oppressed in this country today because they are female. It is only a tactic used by your brand of feminism to advance their true agenda which is getting preferential treatment by law.
The point you are missing is that we do not deserve less than men in this country because women in a third world country have it worse than we do. We still don't have equal pay for equal work. We still don't have equal representation politically. We are making strides and we will continue to work until we achieve equality. What someone else has or doesn't have doesn't change that I deserve equality.
Obviously, you didn't read my post. I was told by a government auditor that the company I hired in with after completing engineering school hired women and minorities "when we make them". Without the equal rights movement and affirmative action, I wouldn't have had that job. Whether you believe it or not, men are at an advantage when interviewing for jobs just for being men. Discrimination against women is alive and well (as is discrimination againts minorities).
This isn't an issue of what goes on in a third world country. This is an issue of what SHOULD go on here. We are not done until we have attained equality. When it is just as likely the female candidate will get the job. When she gets paid the same as the man she works next to. You're trying to say that because we don't have it as bad as someone else we shouldn't complain but what someone else does or does not have has nothing to do with what I deserve.
What I am claiming is women do not yet have equality. It's still more likely the male candidate will get the job if it's a high paying job (true for low paying jobs as well but fewer men try to get those). She is still likely to make less than 80 cents on the dollar to her male counterpart. It's still mainly men in the political arena and mainly men running corporations. The true power still rests with men. Now is not the time to sit on our laurels. We'll lose ground if we do. We can't afford to lose ground. We haven't even made it to equality yet.
What's really sad is that we have to fight for equality. They had to make my former employer hire women and minorities, which seemed to work because now they don't seem to shy away from it anymore. But someone had to make them. There are plenty of companies out there that have to be forced to do what is right. I find that sad in a, supposedly, advanced society.
The federal requirement for equal allowed time off is one thing, but this still doesn't mean employers follow it the way they're supposed to. And paid leave is something completely different, which was the crux of my prior post.
The most obvious one is the responsibility to make good decisions about who you marry and why. This is a major shift from more than 50 years ago. Women may have faced severe problems with some husbands then but most were more careful about the type of man that they married and on balance, this worked out better. Now, they are bailed out in so many ways that there is little interest in selecting good men, just those who meet their need for immediate gratification, since they believe that they will not suffer any ill consequences and will always get a second chance. The latter is obviously not the case for those with children.
In part. There is an entire set of laws, taxes and societal actions designed to funnel ever more money from men to women. Some men are wondering how long before there are additional taxes specifically on single men to give greater support to women they won't marry. Of course, this won't be described this way when it is introduced in legislatures.
This occurred decades ago but it wasn't good enough for women so they demanded equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. A classic is the equal pay for equal work scam described earlier. Somehow, women but not men doing jobs were not paid enough because a formula says so. Nobody ever asks the obvious question: why didn't you change jobs, if the other required less skills and paid more.
The truthful answer is something like: "I liked being a clerk more than a sewer worker."
There was an amusing real life example of this. Tax dept. had female clerks who, while they make considerably more that those in the private sector were supposedly being discriminated against.
Meanwhile, senior tax auditors, some of whom bring in billion dollar adjustments could leave for 3 to 5 times the pay. The only thing that keeps most of them is their hatred of tax cheats that they developed as a young accountant.
The clerks did a number of things - order supplies, file forms, organize manager, etc.
Tax auditors only one - audit.
A formula was applied and it was determined that other employees with less skill were paid more. Most of these jobs involved demanding outside work in winter weather, but skills are skills.
The courts bought this and awarded the women clerks a large compensation package.
The formula used was applied to the auditors and it found that they were overpaid by 30 percent and the clerks should have been making more than them. More idiocy of feminism.
Redneck, we are not talking people doing different jobs is't equal pay for EQUAL work. Not the same pay as someone else doing a different job. We're aware that different jobs have different pay scales but jobs that go to men often come with the opportuntities.
For example, in a certain food chain a friend worked for the progression is bag boy to stock boy to manager for men. For women it's cashier to cashier. Because she lacks the physical strength to stock the freezer, she never gets the opportunity to move into management. Muscle isn't needed for management.
You do hit on one of the issues and that is the channeling of women into dead end, low paying jobs. That's one thing feminsim needs to work on. Fortunately, we now have more women going to college than men. Hopefully, we're turning this one around. For us, education is the key. Men seem to have opportunties without an education but women are limited. The next step is to get women to realize that we need to make up in education what we weren't born with in muscle.
In order to be masters of our own futures, we have to be able to support ourselves.
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