Predestination (salvation, grace, hell, Revelation)

[jeffncandace]

Everybody who frequents this forum knows what I think about predestination. To be frank though, I still have many questions, and find the subject to be a head-scratcher. Another thread was posted about our "appointed time to die", and I had to honestly state that I had no good answer to the question.

My thought process on this particular thread is a 2-parter. The Bible says numerous times that Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," 1st Peter 1:19-20

Question the first! If Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, doesn't this mean that he knew ahead of time that Adam and Eve would sin? In continuation, why did He put the temptation there if He did not, or even if He did?

2nd Set of verses:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" Ephesians 1:3-5

This last set of scripture is (in part) where many Calvinists get their predestination doctrine.

I know that most Christians today don't believe in predestination, as it collides with free will. Or does it?

Question the 2nd! Do you believe you were predestined to serve God? In continuation, was it then really your "free will choice" to do so?

Again, this subject genuinally fascinates me. I know what I believe (or at least I think I do ), but am honestly curious to get other perspectives on these verses.

No, I am not trying to incite another Religion Forum Riot!

[Jazzedforhim]

Jeff,
Don't have a lot of time to post right now but I wanted to quickly comment. This topic has been facinating to me. I dug into the bible for nearly a year because I was so frustrated by the Calvinistic view on God's chosen people.

It is very much a circular agrument...sort of like which came first the chicken or the egg? And it goes back to that free will discussion AGAIN.

My quick comment on the subject is that it is impossible to know the mind of God. He is in a place in time/space that we are not. He can see it all...past, present, and future. He has a plan...so to say that things were determined before the foundation of the world is something that only God can perceive since he has a perspective that we do not.

About free will, I believe that God gives free will to all. That is His gift to us. We have a choice to choose or reject God. To say that we have no choice is clearly against scripture (I'll have to quote later). God does not wish for any to perish. He chooses and draws us all to Him. It is up to us to accept or reject God's initiation of a relatioship. It is God's initiation, not ours. Therefore, God is in control, allowing us to choose.

It's kind of like this: If you are the captain of a baseball team and have a bunch of people to choose from to be on your team...you can choose an individual, BUT they are not really chosen until they accept your offer to be on the team. You can choose everyone...but only some will accept the offer to be on your team and thus be choosen. That is how I see God's offer to all but only some are chosen in the end. And how is it predetermined...it's predetermined by God's foreknowledge of our decision.

Man, you would have to pick this topic...very complicated to discuss online!

And there you have my "short" post! LOL

[jeffncandace]

Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim

Jeff,
Don't have a lot of time to post right now but I wanted to quickly comment. This topic has been facinating to me. I dug into the bible for nearly a year because I was so frustrated by the Calvinistic view on God's chosen people.

It is very much a circular agrument...sort of like which came first the chicken or the egg? And it goes back to that free will discussion AGAIN.

My quick comment on the subject is that it is impossible to know the mind of God. He is in a place in time/space that we are not. He can see it all...past, present, and future. He has a plan...so to say that things were determined before the foundation of the world is something that only God can perceive since he has a perspective that we do not.

About free will, I believe that God gives free will to all. That is His gift to us. We have a choice to choose or reject God. To say that we have no choice is clearly against scripture (I'll have to quote later). God does not wish for any to perish. He chooses and draws us all to Him. It is up to us to accept or reject God's initiation of a relatioship. It is God's initiation, not ours. Therefore, God is in control, allowing us to choose.

It's kind of like this: If you are the captain of a baseball team and have a bunch of people to choose from to be on your team...you can choose an individual, BUT they are not really chosen until they accept your offer to be on the team. You can choose everyone...but only some will accept the offer to be on your team and thus be choosen. That is how I see God's offer to all but only some are chosen in the end. And how is it predetermined...it's predetermined by God's foreknowledge of our decision.

Man, you would have to pick this topic...very complicated to discuss online!

And there you have my "short" post! LOL

Yeah, it's all related. I figure since we all debate the same tired subjects over and over we might as well look for different angles of the questions at hand...

As we all know, the root of predestined is destiny. Destiny refers to a predetermined course of events. To me, there is no way around this. Predestined means our course was predetermined, according to the Bible, and the definition of the word. No?

[Jazzedforhim]

Originally Posted by jeffncandace

Yeah, it's all related. I figure since we all debate the same tired subjects over and over we might as well look for different angles of the questions at hand...

As we all know, the root of predestined is destiny. Destiny refers to a predetermined course of events. To me, there is no way around this. Predestined means our course was predetermined, according to the Bible, and the definition of the word. No?

Sigh, I will try.
First: God clearly wants all to be saved:
1 Timothy 2:3-4 (New International Version)
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 (New International Version)
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God's sacrifice on the cross was sufficient for all sin in the entire world, past present and future.

1 John 2:1-2
1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.

God's grace is effective on the willing but it cannot have the same effect (without being coercive) on unsaved persons who are set in their stubborness and unwillingness to believe. So we have a choice in the matter.

Matthew 23:37 (New International Version)
37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Acts 7:51 (New International Version)
51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

At the same time God says he foreknew the elect, those who would be saved.
1 Peter 1:2 (New International Version)
2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

So clearly, God foreknew those who would be saved. In Revelation it talks about the saints crying out to God for revenge on their blood and God returns with the comment that "the number" has not yet been reached of total persons to be saved.

But, because God foreknew that doesn't take away our free will to choose. This is the circular arguement...can we choose God on our own. Clearly, not, but God gives us a choice by His grace.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Here's the key I think: Man's faith is not the grounds by which God offers salvation to us, but our faith is the means through which we receive His grace. So God foreknew, he is in control, but we also have free will because while the gift is there to all we still have to have faith to receive it. It's both!!!!

[DawnW]

I will watch with interest and may even give a thought or two, but this is a subject I am so passionate about that I have gotten into many a heated discussion with my Presbyterian friends and some have gotten quite upset with me!

I recently read a book called, "Why I am not a Calvinist." I will have to take time to get some good quotes later, but the jist of it is that Christ died for ALL and that the idea of limited atonement is not in the very heart and nature of God.

My question ultimately though is this: WHY did Jesus have to come and die if God had already decided who would go to heaven? Wasn't the need for Jesus to save us from sin? There is no need for a saviour in predestination.

Ok, let me go duck under something before the flames start.

Dawn

[Jazzedforhim]

Another EXCELLENT, and I mean very good book on the subject is "Chosen but Free" by Norman Geisler.

I would VERY STRONGLY suggest anyone who is really interested in studying this topic read his book. It's amazingly well written and very compete in it's discussion.

[jeffncandace]

Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim

But, because God foreknew that doesn't take away our free will to choose. This is the circular arguement...can we choose God on our own. Clearly, not, but God gives us a choice by His grace.

Well, it's only circular if you believe in "free" will. You state yourself "clearly" that we can't choose God on our own, but follow up immediately stating God gave us a choice. How can the 2 both be true? They are not, IMO.

Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim

[Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Isn't our "choosing" to be saved a "work", which the Bible says we should not boast of? Most Christians have the viewpoint, as you stated....

Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim

[God's grace is effective on the willing but it cannot have the same effect (without being coercive) on unsaved persons who are set in their stubborness and unwillingness to believe. So we have a choice in the matter.

So, really, Christians do boast, don't they, since they made the right "choice"?

Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim

[Here's the key I think: Man's faith is not the grounds by which God offers salvation to us, but our faith is the means through which we receive His grace. So God foreknew, he is in control, but we also have free will because while the gift is there to all we still have to have faith to receive it. It's both!!!!

But isn't that faith a gift from God in the first place? If you believe all men have this gift, I have some athiests on this forum I would like to introduce you to.

[emjbulls]

I don't believe in predestination because it takes away the point of making decisions in your life if the outcome is the same. To me, that would be a fruitless life and if there is a higher power, I can't believe s/he/it would have us live a life that is so inconsequential.

[jeffncandace]

Originally Posted by DawnW

I will watch with interest and may even give a thought or two, but this is a subject I am so passionate about that I have gotten into many a heated discussion with my Presbyterian friends and some have gotten quite upset with me!

I recently read a book called, "Why I am not a Calvinist." I will have to take time to get some good quotes later, but the jist of it is that Christ died for ALL and that the idea of limited atonement is not in the very heart and nature of God.

My question ultimately though is this: WHY did Jesus have to come and die if God had already decided who would go to heaven? Wasn't the need for Jesus to save us from sin? There is no need for a saviour in predestination.

Ok, let me go duck under something before the flames start.

Dawn

This whole topic just boggles my fragile little mind.

On the one hand, I agree in that I find a Calvinistic God to be abhorrant. If this were the truth then God is sadistically creating people He knows will reject Him and therefore burn in Hell forever. Sickening thought, IMO.

So we reject predestination, which leaves us imperfect and flawed human beings with a decision to make in which our eternal condition and destination is at stake.

But, if God does not know ahead of time what choice we will make, then how is He omniscient?

Many modern theologians argue that God's omniscience is inherent rather than total, and that God chooses to limit his omniscience in order to preserve the freewill and dignity of his creatures.

Inherent omniscience is the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known. Total omniscience is actually knowing everything that can be known.

Since God is the creator of all that exists, how is it glorifying to Him for us, His creation, to limit His omniscience in order to uphold our "freewill and dignity"? Isn't this making our free will an "idol of the heart"?

[Jazzedforhim]

The thing about predestination that bothers me is that if you believe that there is no free will and we are elected by God for heaven then that means that some were elected for Hell and I don't believe that at all.

Well...if you believe in an eternal Hell and THAT is a whole different topic!