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Old 02-07-2011, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,881,386 times
Reputation: 1027

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One fundamental lesson I learned as I discovered the truth about Mormonism that I cannot stress enough is the critical necessity to read information critical of whatever current beliefs you have. The only thing that kept me believing in Mormonism as long as I did was that I had not read good quality, scholarly articles and books critical of Mormonism's claims like that exposing the Book of Abraham for what it was. I was so certain the Church was true and thought I knew lots of evidence that "confirmed" it from religious manuals and other pro-LDS books. After finding out that I was wrong when I had been so sure that I was right, I knew that I needed to not fall into the trap of unjustified certainty again. It is not enough to build a strong case for an idea, one must be aware of the evidence against the idea as well.

Some people discourage reading material that is not faith-promoting, that might raise doubts in your mind. All the more reason to read it, I say. Maybe the belief system should be doubted because it is not true. I'd rather find out it is not true if it is not true than comfort myself with a delusion. How can I know it is not true if I won't allow myself to even consider the evidence? If I examine the critical evidence and find it not persuasive then I am that much more confident in my original beliefs. One will be closer to the truth either way, so I find that an open-minded examination of the critical evidence to be beneficial either way.

I suppose some people might be hesitant to examine challenging evidence out of feel of being duped by the non-believers (or deceived by the devil). Well, how do you know you are not being duped right now by the believers? Have some confidence in yourself that you will be able to get to the bottom of the accusations and claims by examining the evidence and arguments yourself? Don't take what anyone says or writes at face value, but use what they say as a jumping off point into your investigation.

Others are so sure they are right that they have blinded themselves from ever being able to see that they are wrong no matter how obvious the evidence.

I suppose there is nothing wrong with going with the flow as long as you are not interested in the truth.

Too often people are encouraged to conduct one-sided research into religious claims. Some posters say, "if you want to learn about (such-and-such a religion) then talk to the followers of that religion, but don't listen to former followers or critics of that religion as they are sure to disparage it and misrepresent it". If one wants the complete story, one should talk to both believers and critics and read original sources.

We do that in every other life dimension, why not religion, too? Before you buy a new car, do you read both positive and negative reviews? Before you have dealings with an unfamiliar company, do you consult the Better Business Bureau and ask around to see if your friends have hard any experience with them? You want to hear the good and the bad so that you are informed and not as likely to be taken advantage of. Not every review is useful (some people have an ax to grind or are unreasonable), but if you read enough reviews you can get a pretty good idea of what the product or business is like.

Why not do that with religion? Why just accept what believers have told you about their religion without questioning it and verifying it? Why trust the authors of the Bible? Scholarly evidence suggests that perhaps we should not be so trusting that the Bible we read is telling us the truth. Are you familiar with that evidence? I don't mean that some believer mentioned some of that evidence to you then dismissed it out of hand; and I don't mean did you just quickly glance at an article and then dismiss it out of hand. Did you really study it, understanding why the evidence is so persuasive?

Do you need a place to start? Read Karen Armstrong's "A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam". Amazon.com: A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam (9780345384560): Karen Armstrong: Books

Or read Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why". Amazon.com: Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why (Plus) (9780060859510): Bart D. Ehrman: Books

If you are a Christian and have not read these books...well, you are simply uninformed. If you base your life on Christianity, you need to find the time and the interest to read at least those two books. Then, in the spirit of hearing both sides of every issue, you can read whatever christian apologetics you want.

I practice what I preach. I read articles and books critical of my current beliefs. I am open to hearing and considering evidence for an opposing view point. That is the only way I can ever learn if and when I am wrong.

Edit: Reading what posters write on a message board like this doesn't really count towards reading articles and books that are critical of your beliefs. Why? Because one really needs to study in depth, on one's own, scholarly works to fairly consider the evidence and arguments. It is too easy to casually read and dismiss what people say in message boards.

Last edited by Hueffenhardt; 02-07-2011 at 03:17 PM..
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Old 02-07-2011, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 25,079,672 times
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Excellent post. The people who most need to consider your points won't.
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Old 02-07-2011, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,881,386 times
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Thanks, catman.
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Old 02-07-2011, 03:27 PM
 
63,391 posts, read 39,647,364 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
Excellent post. The people who most need to consider your points won't.
Agreed . . . that applies to all beliefs (or non-beliefs . . . as some like to deceive themselves about). What you believe constitutes beliefs, period . . . no matter their content.
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Old 02-07-2011, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,881,386 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Agreed . . . that applies to all beliefs (or non-beliefs . . . as some like to deceive themselves about). What you believe constitutes beliefs, period . . . no matter their content.
Absolutely, for example, your beliefs are at odds with my monist, materialist beliefs. So, I have read and considered the evidence and arguments that you feel support your rejection of monism.
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Old 02-07-2011, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,139 posts, read 22,708,718 times
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Very true, Huff. Mormonism is particularly crooked in that aspect; I guess church leaders don't think the religion can stand on it's own merits and culture, so they go to great lengths to label anything even remotely crititcal of the church as "anti" literature which is automatically "evil" and to be avoided like the plague.

Any institution that denies searching for and acquiring knowledge isn't gonna survive the future in my opinion.

The sad thing about it all is that there is no reason to hide real Mormon history; it is fascinating. It is no more wacky than any other religion's traditions and myths. Joseph Smith isn't the first man to be deified after his death and have his tale spun into a "great leader" achetype, nor will he be the last.

My favorite line from the series "Firefly" applies double here:

"It's my estimation that every man who ever got a statue made of him was one kind of son-of-a-*#&$ or another. It ain't 'bout you, (Joe Smith ) it's about what they need."
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Old 02-07-2011, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,881,386 times
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True Chango, but Joseph Smith did a heck of a job trying to hide his behaviors during his lifetime. He hid the majority of his plural marriages not only from his followers but even from his first wife Emma, even though he wrote revelation saying that in order for plural marriage to be godly he needed to get permission from his first wife. The absolutely best book out there, beyond reproach in its citing of original journals and historical documents, is "In Sacred Loneliness:The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith" by Todd Compton.

Joseph Smith significantly and meaningfully changed revelations with no note of the changes in later publications from the "Book of Commandments" to the Doctrine and Covenants.

Someone will surely accuse me of spreading lies in my post. But, they will accuse me because they have never bothered to educate themselves in this regard.
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Old 02-07-2011, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,881,386 times
Reputation: 1027
Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
Excellent post. The people who most need to consider your points won't.
It is so strange how some people resist learning more about the very thing they base their life on. I am reminded of Richard Dawkins' concept of viral memes. The very concept that one would be instructed to not question one's beliefs through considering evidence that is critical of one's position is extremely dangerous and a key ingredient of brainwashing. It is like AIDS in that it attacks one's very immune system, except in this case it attacks your ability to recognize and destroy a false and harmful belief system.

I shutter that I ever heeded my church leaders when they discouraged the reading of what they deemed "anti". That should have set off warning bells of a possible scam. Even a prominent poster here continues to encourage people only to go to the Church to learn about the Church. If someone is running a scam, do you really think they are going to tell you about the evidence that proves they are a scam? It is absurd on the face of it. Sure, hear what the Church has to say, but before forming an opinion, hear what the other side has to say and ask them to point you to their sources so that you can weigh the evidence yourself.

The truth can stand up to any evidence. One should be suspicious of anyone who discourages you from reading the critical reviews. Everyone is biased; no one can be truly objective. One shouldn't assume that you are getting the whole story from the believers.
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Old 02-08-2011, 10:04 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,079 posts, read 20,479,780 times
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I agree. That's really the answer to 'If you don't believe, why are you here arguing about it?'

It is always good to listen to the other side of the argument, rather than dismiss it as 'Oh well, that's just your belief..' or some such nonsense.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-08-2011 at 10:17 AM..
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,139 posts, read 22,708,718 times
Reputation: 14115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post
True Chango, but Joseph Smith did a heck of a job trying to hide his behaviors during his lifetime. He hid the majority of his plural marriages not only from his followers but even from his first wife Emma, even though he wrote revelation saying that in order for plural marriage to be godly he needed to get permission from his first wife. The absolutely best book out there, beyond reproach in its citing of original journals and historical documents, is "In Sacred Loneliness:The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith" by Todd Compton.

Joseph Smith significantly and meaningfully changed revelations with no note of the changes in later publications from the "Book of Commandments" to the Doctrine and Covenants.

Someone will surely accuse me of spreading lies in my post. But, they will accuse me because they have never bothered to educate themselves in this regard.
How dare you spread the truth! Don't you know the "official history" is much prettier, dramatic and just plain nobler than the truth?

Next I suppose you will try to use court documents as evidence for Smith's behavior or point out nearly all his closest confidants left the church because he ran the "kingdom" like a little Napoleon or try to argue the mormons DIDN'T actually get forced out of Nauvoo. (I guess "reorganized" Mormons don't count, and they will tell you that Brigham Young's followers were the splinter group ).

I'm telling ya, this stuff is fascinating. But don't get mad at the LDS church Hueff; if you look back just about EVERY major religion there is had a comparable start. They just did what people do, and the modern day Mormon church has evolved into a totally different animal from what it was back then. Praise to the man and all that; I still have respect for current members. If it works for them, great! But it just doesn't work for me.

Last edited by Chango; 02-08-2011 at 12:37 PM..
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