God, Evil, and Evidence.

[arod0331]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

Nothing is impossible for God.

Then why doesn't he make it happen now?

[Black Ghost 7]

apologies for not replying sooner, I enjoyed the, no doubt, hedonistic pleasures of Brian Adams playing here in Manchester and decided yesterday my laptop would need a rest - or more I needed one ... anyway, back to our discussion, which I very much enjoy and is becoming increasingly interesting ...

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

You don't offend, I have come across many like you. You didn't answer my question. How can you have a Kingdom without a King? "We are to set our affections above" doesn't mean we ignore what is going on here, it is Christians, mainly conservatives who give more than the liberals/ secularists. We started organizations such as the Salvation Army, YMCA etc...

I am still awaiting the humanist to fix the world, I mean between marxism, communism, nazism, socialism, atheism, fascism, darwinsim. Where do they find the time?

Perhaps labelling is the worst thing going on here and I won't pretend I don't have a habit of doing so at times ... however, strikingly you say that you have come across many like me ... I doubt that. Not that I'm anything special; yet I believe you and me should at least agree our Creator created us all unique ...

I did not quite understand your question to be frank ... to me the Kingdom started 2000 years ago and Jesus is the self confessed and appointed king. However, in true 1st century Jesus Galilean style, I answered your question with a return question ... I fail to see you answered my question, so perhaps we are both still waiting for an answer.

I could give you a hefty rhetoric on all the 'isms' you mentioned and their ability to bring good in some way, bar nazism and fascism, which if you truly understood all the 'isms' you mention would not have put in that list ...

To me being a believer in Jesus does not mean I can't be open minded and appreciate the efforts of humanity ... I believe in a God who when Christians fail to take a certain responsibility will excert his plans even through those not loyal to Him ... I think a good understanding of the Old Testament shows that clearly ...

I think the scale of today's issues requires us to work together with people who might necessarily share our worldview, may I also mention the salt imagery of Jesus in Matthew 5

LOL....He is not being honest with himself. He is what we fundamentalist call a "Red Letter Christian" the new age movement Christian who basically follows the red letters in the bible and pretty much discards the rest because the entire bible doesn't follow their philosophical christianity in fact it can not.

He can't explain the God of the Old Testament and just the mere fact that you think God is a maniacal monster but yet you agree with him gives credence

I'm quite comfortable with Red Letter Christian, although I must say that really fundamentalists never gave us/me that label, it was in fact a name given to us/me by the RLC movement itself. On a pure theological basis your reasoning fails at one major point which is that the red letters are in fact the perfection of that the rest of the Bible teaches as I assume that you will agree with me that Jesus came to fulfil the law? So following the red letters should lead to a Christianity true to Jesus' teachings and in line with the rest of scripture? The issues of justice central to RLC are in fact found within many old testament verses for example. RLCs furthermore do not deny the issues central to much fundamentalist beliefs, rather it, in line with Jesus' teachings, rejuggles the priorities of these issues and calls for a different focus.

My old testament knowledge might shock you and my theological background would no doubt too. I have been immersed in fundamentalism from a young age, but never found solace in religion, rather I found it in the challenge of Jesus. Nevertheless one of the great things some more traditionally focused theologians taught me was that God reveals himself in the Bible gradually, sometimes likened to a flower blossoming. Furthermore we need to apply situational and historical context to certainly some of the Old Testament laws and regulations and be honest with ourselves; why do we struggle to accept Salomon's many wives and consequently less than monogamous sexlife as a guidelines for today's standards, yet we are eager to condemn others with old testament laws when it suits us?

Let me, at risk of being called anything from 'liberal' to 'anti-christ' give you an example. I would argue that from all the people I know, which involves and equal amount of believers and non-believers, I find that the homophobics are found amongst the non-believers. Yet it is the church that is known for this ... now, I know that is the media for a large part but yet still I believe that a large proportion of the church is in fact homophobic and I think that is wrong to the core. I think that when Jesus spoke about his Kingdom he saw a Kingdom that would embrace gay and lesbian people as much as anyone else. In fact I'd like to take a risk here of being labelled even further (but who cares) and say that I think Jesus would have wanted the church to be a safe haven for gay and lesbian people years ago when the secular world was even more homophobic. Why do we struggle to apply correct and thorough exegesis to scripture which deals with these issues? Does scripture perhaps condemn homosexual relationships which are solely focused on lust as it would do so for heterosexual relationships of the same kind? Was the cultural background of many writings one of committed monogamous relationships or one of loose solely sexually orientated relationships, characterised by lust and orgies? I think you would find it was the latter. Whether we like it or not, I think the church often fails to be the salt when it is not politically or culturally acceptable. Anyone suggesting the church has spotless history of defiance and non-acceptance of many politically related issues would be lying and worse, they would be knowingly lying.

You earlier on mentioned that you enjoy nature, great so do I and with us many. I think that looking at nature, the earth in all its fulness if you like reveals a God that is infinitely great (although I'm sure brian would disagree at this point ). I think we often put that same God in a box (very evangelical and apostolical you will think no doubt). I think the Bible provides us with a framework and a revelation, not a box. Furthermore Romans 8 tells us that 'all have fallen short' ... that includes me and you. I think that when Jesus returns and we stand before God, the question asked, if there would be any asked, won't be how many boxes you ticked on the holiness-top20 of God. The question I think will be 'how much of Jesus did I and did others see in your life, very practically'. I think that since we all have fallen short and we are redeemed through nothing but the ultimate sacrifice, I'd like to take a risk: I rather be found to be too inclusive than too exclusive. I'd rather be considered too soft, than too hard and perhaps arrogant. I'd rather get it all wrong and be a broken human trying to follow the red letters -and therefor Jesus- than thinking I know it all, whilst the Bible is clear that to know is to not know at all. God in large parts remains a mystery to me. How can I be so arrogant to think I know or understand the God of the universe? This is what faith is, trusting in that what I cannot see or do not know fully.

The main thing here is acceptance and appreciation. I know you're not from around manchester, but if it was the case there would be nothing stopping me from sitting at one table with you and share a meal and a glass of wine, although you might culturally be opposed to the latter. The same goes for Brian, although perhaps we replace the wine with a pint of lager, being english and all that .... my point is that to anyone this thread could seem as nothing more than bickering and nitpicking. Perhaps at times we all fail to communicate our differences in a respectful, loving, yet articulate manner ...

guilty!

[Black Ghost 7]

Originally Posted by brianrees

Poor Black Ghost: I might have known you'd have another of your labels to stick on him. If that's how a 'Red Letter Christian' like him sees things, then most civilised people would say it's a distinct improvement on your antiquated views. So more power to the lad...

Hi Brian, thanks for the pity ... I often find myself more accepted and appreciated by those who do not agree with the whole of the religion we know as christianity ...

now, this might seem pretentious and cocky, but I remember Jesus having the same issue ...

[Black Ghost 7]

where is everyone gone?

[SuSuSushi]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

God does my friend, the creation screams, there's a God. Even if God showed Himself people still won't believe. Jesus proved that.

Evolution does my friend, the evolution screams, there's no god. Even if evolution showed itself, people still won't believe. Christians proved that.

[Capt. Dan]

Originally Posted by sun

Some of us really believe that God has provided plenty of tangible evidence. It can be argued that included among the evidence is the quantum leap of technological advances that have been made at the exact same time that the world's population is undergoing exponential increases in population growth, and in such a coordinated fashion that the world's standard of living is still constantly growing. Our standard of living is where our next meal is coming from!
And that God, as the harbinger of all knowledge, has chosen to carefully reveal enough scientific knowledge at the very same time that it is needed to continue mankind's comfortable existence into the future.
We live in the space age, and the nuclear age, where there's wonderous medical advances, genetic advances, food production advances, electronic and communication advances, each of which can be considered to have been revealed to man by our creator, since the knowledge is His to reveal.
These are surely scientific advances, but time and time again, when mankind really needed to break new scientific & technological ground, personal efforts proved fruitful, BTW which sometimes were discovered seemingly by accident!
Now whether or not a person chooses to believe that any discovery was really an accident or was inspired and designed to happen thorough means by which only God can act, is up to the individual and God to decide.
But then some humans are born blind and deaf, and can't hear a sound or see their world, just as a child has no understanding of anything at birth. Yet over time, the entire body of known knowledge that is potentially humanly accessible is revealed to each.
If this is God's universe, then everything in the universe is proof of God.
But for those who don't have the senses, faith or grace to see, hear & learn about the tangible evidence of the creator, then they will remain Godless and devoid of understanding until the life long learning process is complete.
Isn't that at least something that can be agreed on, that life is a learning process that includes lessons about truth, and about the nature of not only our existence but the existence of the entire universe in which we live and breath?
Time itself is also part of God, and time is all that's required for all of the proof about God to be revealed to everyone.
Just as some people may have better vision than others, some people have more faith, wisdom and intuition then others. So if some people can see evidence of God which another person can't seem to recognize, then perhaps over time there will be a process through which God can better prove Himself to each person who doesn't have the means.
Asking for proof of God is similar to a young child going on a long trip in a car, and very often they will repeatedly ask "Are we there yet?"
"No, we aren't there yet, but give it a little more time and we will be"
Give God enough time and He will provide enough proof of Himself to satisfy everyone's sensibilities. The timing will probably depend on when it will best suit His purpose for wanting each one of us to learn, know and understand. Until such a time comes, everyone should try to remain satisfied & happy with the amount of understanding that they already do possess.

Even if tangible science proves that life on earth began LONG before the book of Genesis says it did?

[brianrees]

Originally Posted by Black Ghost 7

Hi Brian, thanks for the pity ... I often find myself more accepted and appreciated by those who do not agree with the whole of the religion we know as christianity ...

now, this might seem pretentious and cocky, but I remember Jesus having the same issue ...

Hi there, B.G.

I must remember not to patronise you with pity from now on, it's been an on-going weakness of mine.

But seriously: I just read the very articulate and lengthy post you made here a few days ago - and see you still putting up a brave struggle against the 'fundies' amongst us. I don't feel much like butting in on a heated debate between rival Christian factions, but there is rather a lot you say that I find myself in agreement with, despite my atheism.

It's the end of a very long day here in London, so I haven't the energy to scrutinise and answer all your points in detail, as I would like to do. Maybe tomorrow.

In the meantime, keep it coming - it's a rare treat to find such an inquisitive mind in the Christian camp that isn't hampered by too much dogma and inflexibility. (Talking of which, I see Captain Dan is still as hilarious as ever).

I accept your suggestion of a drink, although wine would be fine, thanks.... I reserve the lager for the weekends when I go on the rampage smashing up town centres and being sick over policemen.

Regards, Brian.

[JonathanLB]

Why does god love everyone when most people suck? I mean honestly, what kind of low standards is that? And if he loves everyone, that kind of taints his love. It doesn't make it very special. Whatever is rare and conferred with careful thought is valuable, but whatever is common is necessarily and by definition not good. It reminds me of the saying: "Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks you're an a** hole."