God, Evil, and Evidence. (grace, Isaiah, Egyptian, genesis)

[GenesisNemesis]

Whenever I ask Christians why God allows Evil, the answer is always "because God honors our choice whether or not to believe in Him," or something like that. But if God truly honored our choice, why doesn't He give tangible evidence of His existence? Why is His "evidence" always on par with Elvis Presley fanatics who cry "Elvis lives!"? Why is His "evidence" always as credible as a ghost sighting, or an alien abduction story?

[kawgpz550]

Question: "Why does God require faith? Why doesn't God "prove" Himself to us so there is no need for faith?"

Answer: Our relationship with God is similar to our relationship with others in that all relationships require faith, and I can never and will never fully know any other person. This is because we are incapable of fully knowing others because we cannot experience all they experience nor enter into their minds to know what their thoughts and emotions are. Proverbs 14:10 says, "The heart knows its own bitterness, and a stranger does not share its joy." We are even incapable of knowing our own heart fully. Jeremiah 17:9 says that the human heart is wicked and deceptive, and this verse asks concerning the human heart, "Who can know it?" In other words, the human heart is such that it seeks to hide the depth of its wickedness and gloss over it, deceiving even its owner. We do this through blame shifting, justifying wrong behavior, minimizing our sins, etc.

Because we are incapable of fully knowing fellow humans, to some degree faith (trust) is an integral ingredient in all relationships. For example, my wife gets into a car with me driving, trusting me to drive safely, even though I drive faster than she does on winter roads. She and my children trust me to act in their best interest when handling finances or when I am away from them and can choose to act in faithfulness to them or not. We all share information about ourselves with others, trusting they won't betray us with that knowledge. We drive down the road, trusting those driving around us to follow the rule of the road. So, whether with strangers or with intimate friends and companions, because we cannot fully know others, trust is always a necessary component of our relationships.

If we cannot know our fellow finite human beings fully, how can we expect to fully know an infinite God? Even if He should desire to fully reveal Himself, it is impossible for us to fully know Him. It is like trying to pour the ocean (seemingly infinite in quantity) into a quart-measuring jar (finite)... impossible! But nonetheless, even as we can have meaningful relationships with those around us that we have grown to trust because of our knowledge of them and of their character, so God has revealed enough about Himself through His creation (Romans 1:18-21), through His written word, the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:16-21), and through His Son (John 14:9) that we can enter into a meaningful relationship with Him. But this is only possible when the barrier of one's sin has been removed by coming to trust in Christ's person and work on the cross as payment for one's sin. This is necessary because, as it is impossible for both light and darkness to dwell together, so it is impossible for a holy God to have fellowship with sinful mankind unless our sin has been paid for and removed. Jesus Christ, the sinless Son of God, died on the cross to take our punishment and change us so that the one who believes on Him can become a child of God and live eternally in His presence (John 1:12; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 2 Peter 3:18; Romans 3:10-26).

There have been times in the past that God has revealed Himself more "visibly" to people. One example of this is at the time of the exodus from Egypt, when God revealed His care for the Israelites by sending the miraculous plagues upon the Egyptians until they were willing to release the Israelites from their slavery. God then opened up the Red Sea, enabling the approximately two million Israelites to cross over on dry ground. Then, as the Egyptian army sought to pursue them through the same opening, He defeated this enemy by bringing the waters upon them. Later, in the wilderness, God fed them miraculously with manna, guided them in the day by a pillar of cloud and by night by a pillar of fire, visible representations of His presence with them. He also obtained water for this great number of people in the wilderness through miraculous means, including causing water to flow from a rock as Moses struck it with his rod.

Yet, in spite of these repeated demonstrations of His love, guidance, and power, they still refused to trust Him when He wanted them to enter into the Promised Land. They chose instead to trust the word of ten men who frightened them with their stories of the walled cities and the giant stature of some of the people of the land, and to ignore the counsel of two godly men who encouraged them to trust God who had always been faithful. These events, found in the books of Exodus and Numbers, show that God's further revealing Himself to us would have no greater effect on our ability to trust Him. For were God to interact in a similar fashion with all of the people living today, we would respond no differently than did those Israelites...our sinful hearts are the same as theirs. But even as a few of the Israelites chose to trust God based on what He had revealed of Himself in the past and were willing to trust Him for the future, (going into the Promised Land - Numbers 13:1-14:9), so we can choose to trust Him for our future based upon what He has already revealed about Himself and His character.

The Bible also speaks of a future time when the glorified Christ will return to rule the earth from Jerusalem for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-10). More people will be born on the earth during that reign of Christ. He will rule with complete justice and righteousness, yet in spite of His perfect rule, the Bible states that at the end of the 1,000 years, Satan will have no trouble raising up an army of men to rebel against and to seek to overthrow Christ's rule. The future event of the millennium and the past event of the exodus reveal that the problem is not with God insufficiently revealing Himself to man; rather, the problem is with man's sinful heart rebelling against God's loving reign because it craves its own sinful self-rule.

God has revealed enough of His nature for us to be able to trust Him. He has declared and shown through the events of history, in the workings of nature, and through the life of His only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ, that He is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-wise, all-loving, all-holy, unchanging, and eternal. And in that revelation, He has shown that He is worthy to be trusted. But as with the Israelites in the wilderness, the choice is ours as to whether or not we will trust Him. Often, one is inclined to make this choice based on what he/she thinks he knows about God rather than what He has revealed about Himself and can be understood about Him through a careful study of His inerrant word, the Bible. I encourage you to begin this careful study of the Bible, that you may come to know God through a reliance upon His Son, Jesus Christ, who came to earth to save us from our sin so that we might have sweet companionship with God both now and in a fuller way in heaven one day.

[Throx]

God loves us all, no matter what specifics we involve ourselves with.

[sun]

Originally Posted by GenesisNemesis

Whenever I ask Christians why God allows Evil, the answer is always "because God honors our choice whether or not to believe in Him," or something like that. But if God truly honored our choice, why doesn't He give tangible evidence of His existence? Why is His "evidence" always on par with Elvis Presley fanatics who cry "Elvis lives!"? Why is His "evidence" always as credible as a ghost sighting, or an alien abduction story?

Some of us really believe that God has provided plenty of tangible evidence. It can be argued that included among the evidence is the quantum leap of technological advances that have been made at the exact same time that the world's population is undergoing exponential increases in population growth, and in such a coordinated fashion that the world's standard of living is still constantly growing. Our standard of living is where our next meal is coming from!
And that God, as the harbinger of all knowledge, has chosen to carefully reveal enough scientific knowledge at the very same time that it is needed to continue mankind's comfortable existence into the future.
We live in the space age, and the nuclear age, where there's wonderous medical advances, genetic advances, food production advances, electronic and communication advances, each of which can be considered to have been revealed to man by our creator, since the knowledge is His to reveal.
These are surely scientific advances, but time and time again, when mankind really needed to break new scientific & technological ground, personal efforts proved fruitful, BTW which sometimes were discovered seemingly by accident!
Now whether or not a person chooses to believe that any discovery was really an accident or was inspired and designed to happen thorough means by which only God can act, is up to the individual and God to decide.
But then some humans are born blind and deaf, and can't hear a sound or see their world, just as a child has no understanding of anything at birth. Yet over time, the entire body of known knowledge that is potentially humanly accessible is revealed to each.
If this is God's universe, then everything in the universe is proof of God.
But for those who don't have the senses, faith or grace to see, hear & learn about the tangible evidence of the creator, then they will remain Godless and devoid of understanding until the life long learning process is complete.
Isn't that at least something that can be agreed on, that life is a learning process that includes lessons about truth, and about the nature of not only our existence but the existence of the entire universe in which we live and breath?
Time itself is also part of God, and time is all that's required for all of the proof about God to be revealed to everyone.
Just as some people may have better vision than others, some people have more faith, wisdom and intuition then others. So if some people can see evidence of God which another person can't seem to recognize, then perhaps over time there will be a process through which God can better prove Himself to each person who doesn't have the means.
Asking for proof of God is similar to a young child going on a long trip in a car, and very often they will repeatedly ask "Are we there yet?"
"No, we aren't there yet, but give it a little more time and we will be"
Give God enough time and He will provide enough proof of Himself to satisfy everyone's sensibilities. The timing will probably depend on when it will best suit His purpose for wanting each one of us to learn, know and understand. Until such a time comes, everyone should try to remain satisfied & happy with the amount of understanding that they already do possess.

[jeffncandace]

Originally Posted by GenesisNemesis

Whenever I ask Christians why God allows Evil, the answer is always "because God honors our choice whether or not to believe in Him," or something like that. But if God truly honored our choice, why doesn't He give tangible evidence of His existence? Why is His "evidence" always on par with Elvis Presley fanatics who cry "Elvis lives!"? Why is His "evidence" always as credible as a ghost sighting, or an alien abduction story?

Ah, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head my friend. But the answer is this...without faith, it is impossible to please God.

Glory to God, it is not about our choice, but about God's grace.

"[God] Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but IN ACCORD WITH HIS OWN PURPOSE and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian [before the world began]," [Concordant Literal New Testament] 2Tim 1:9

"I form the light, and create darkness: I MAKE PEACE, AND CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

God created evil along with good because we humans learn by opposites. Light from darkness, bitter from sweet, hot from cold...good from evil. God has a learning process that He is bringing His creation through. God has provided a safety net to save all of creation in case someone is slow to learn by the death of His Son, but that does not mean that we are not held responsible for our choices and actions. We will all be judged and given punishment, or reward, in the afterlife.

[brianrees]

[quote]

Originally Posted by sun

Some of us really believe that God has provided plenty of tangible evidence. It can be argued that included among the evidence is the quantum leap of technological advances that have been made at the exact same time that the world's population is undergoing exponential increases in population growth, and in such a coordinated fashion that the world's standard of living is still constantly growing. Our standard of living is where our next meal is coming from!
And that God, as the harbinger of all knowledge, has chosen to carefully reveal enough scientific knowledge at the very same time that it is needed to continue mankind's comfortable existence into the future.

Do we both live on the same planet, SUN ?

No wonder America has a long reputation for being ignorant of the rest of the world, or at least for ignoring it completely.

Have you not heard of the THIRD WORLD (also located on this same planet) - where the plight of humanity is miserable beyond belief, with innocent children dying of AIDS, starvation, lack of clean water, and preventable diseases of every sort. And much of it because of the mindless consumption by the richer nations, and America in particular.

God failed (even if he exists, let alone have any power over human affairs) to inspire that disastrous president, Bush, to even sign the Kyoto protocol (or other subsequent treaties designed to ensure a healthier planet) - NOT if the greedy AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE stood to be compromised to the slightest degree.... the act of a good Christian - Hardly!

Not only is your complacent outlook so limited geographically (and morally, I would say) to the well-being of the richest Nation on Earth, but your historical perspective is even more distorted.

I could give a million examples of unbelievable suffering down the ages, but one will suffice to blow your complacent theory about god keeping up with humanity's needs clean out of the water:

I mean the catastrophic plagues that ravaged half the world in the middle ages. Europe lost up to an estimated two-thirds of its population during those terrible years, with people dying faster than their bodies could be thrown into mass plague pits. No relief whatsoever was at hand to alleviate any of this suffering, and folk just had to die in agony in their millions.

So please, on the basis of this example alone, don't tell me that your god was standing by with technological, or any other help - safer to say he was poweless to intervene, in which case he is not OMNIPOTENT - or he chose not to intervene although able to, thus proving himself to be a MONSTER OF INDIFFERENCE.....

Safer, surely, to assume he doesn't exist at all - as suggested by the total lack of evidence.

We live in the space age, and the nuclear age, where there's wonderous medical advances, genetic advances, food production advances, electronic and communication advances, each of which can be considered to have been revealed to man by our creator, since the knowledge is His to reveal.
These are surely scientific advances, but time and time again, when mankind really needed to break new scientific & technological ground, personal efforts proved fruitful, BTW which sometimes were discovered seemingly by accident!

UNBELIEVABLE !

When will you come back to reality and realise that MANKIND is owed the credit for the sheer hard work that led to all scientific discovery, all medical advances, and all compassionate and humane improvements in human welfare, right down the ages?

Why the overwhelming need to belittle the attainments of the human mind and give all the credit to an imaginary figure who has clearly left his Creation to its own devices, at least since biblical times?

If this is God's universe, then everything in the universe is proof of God.

But where is this proof, with respect, other than in your own mind, your own fantasy? Such proof is as lacking in reality as proof that the moon is made of green cheese, or that an alien civilisation lives in the bowels of the earth.

Time is too short to look at the rest of your post, but I think I have said enough already to show you that your views are not my views, and that on balance, my views are more in touch with the reality of Life on Earth - AS WE EXPERIENCE IT in the here and now.

Brian.

[Black Ghost 7]

although I largely agree with you, brianrees concerning your criticism of the limited worlview of SUN, I do not agree fully with your post

I think in the face of injustice we need to see hope, it is that hope that for me defines and perhaps even provides evidence of the reality of God

Philosophers have argued that although I can't see the wind, I can see the effects of the wind which allows me to conceptualise wind, perhaps the same goes for God

Admittedly though, where do we see God working? And I will agree with you that often where we should see God working through the hands of humans, it doesn't happen ... a bit like human beings putting up giant screens to stop the wind ....

yet I see God in the voices of hope rising up around the world ... voices which if go unheard, still exist and provide hope for millions

recently I realised my question for too long focused on the why of others: why did George Bush fail to even sign the Kyoto protocol, why does mr A. not do this and Mr. B not do that ... I realised I have been in different spiritual communities and have often pre-occupied myself with asking the question and not providing the answer ...

the answer to me comes down to being the answer yourself

why does God allow evil? plainly put because man wanted to know about evil ... luckily we were also provided with the answer: hope, life, justice ... more commonly put as Jesus

does the existence and apparent prevalence of evil disproof God? or does the existence of the understated voice of hope guide me to believing and taking action against evil?

[brianrees]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Black Ghost 7

although I largely agree with you, brianrees concerning your criticism of the limited worlview of SUN, I do not agree fully with your post

I think in the face of injustice we need to see hope, it is that hope that for me defines and perhaps even provides evidence of the reality of God

Interesting retort, Black Ghost.

A touch too poetic for my own consumption, maybe, but I see that you, too, have struggled with these same issues in some depth. Where we differ is in our concept of where HOPE comes from. You see it as being a gift from god, and I see it more in the sense of 'Hope Springs Eternal' in the human breast, regardless of a god.

That splits our respective takes on reality right down the middle, and there is no possibility of any philosophical agreement whilst we maintain these diametrically opposed positions. Whether debate is even possible on that basis is arguable, but we could try, I suppose.

Philosophers have argued that although I can't see the wind, I can see the effects of the wind which allows me to conceptualise wind, perhaps the same goes for God

Admittedly though, where do we see God working? And I will agree with you that often where we should see God working through the hands of humans, it doesn't happen ... a bit like human beings putting up giant screens to stop the wind ....

This reference to the invisibility of the wind is surely allegorical, a beautiful metaphor, but one that nevertheless fails to stand up to logical scrutiny. The existence of the wind has never been disputed, as you say, since we can see, measure and feel its effects all around us. Not so God...

If we happened to be living in a civilisation that had no history of belief in a Deity, I contend that neither of us could have any experience of that Deity at work in our lives or in the world, either directly or indirectly.

I would say, rather, that it is precisely because you have inherited an existing concept of an invisible god that it is possible for you to conceptualise him as you do - you are drawing on millennia of unproved religious belief as a basis for your chosen way of interpreting the world.

Far from agreeing with you that we rarely see God working through the hands of humans (if that is what you are saying) - I would immediately point out to you what I've tried to express several times before on these fora - mankind deserves more credit for an umpteen number of tremendous achievements, not least in the field of medicine.

If you were to send a Christian missionary to say, an area of Africa which is being devastated by the AIDS epidemic - armed only with a bible and a prayer - I very much doubt if we would see a tangible result.

Send in some man-made medicines, however, (with or without the prayers), and the resulting alleviation of suffering would be demonstrable. But even so, God still gets the credit for this - rather unfairly, I would say.

yet I see God in the voices of hope rising up around the world ... voices which if go unheard, still exist and provide hope for millions

Sorry, but I don't see that at all....

why does God allow evil? plainly put because man wanted to know about evil ... luckily we were also provided with the answer: hope, life, justice ... more commonly put as Jesus

God, (not that we agree he exists) - may be allowing evil for the most obvious reason that springs to mind - He is powerless to stop it... If he had such power, He's clearly not exercising any of it to benefit the starving and the dispossessed of the world. - And as I just said, it's always down to us mere mortals to do that work entirely without an INVISIBLE MEANS OF SUPPORT (if you pardon my slight twist to such a familiar phrase).

As for Jesus - I don't think he belongs in the bible in the first place - ask the Gnostics. (But of course you can't - the early church saw to that when it hounded all dissent into extinction).

does the existence and apparent prevalence of evil disproof God? or does the existence of the understated voice of hope guide me to believing and taking action against evil?

You won't like my answer to this, but I would say, rely on your humanity and your conscience and you won't go far wrong. Expect no Heavenly reward - and if there is a god after all, let him surprise by revealing himself to you after you die ... 'cos no way is he going to do that whilst you're alive - sorry.

[Black Ghost 7]

[quote=brianrees;5892074]

Interesting retort, Black Ghost.

A touch too poetic for my own consumption, maybe, but I see that you, too, have struggled with these same issues in some depth. Where we differ is in our concept of where HOPE comes from. You see it as being a gift from god, and I see it more in the sense of 'Hope Springs Eternal' in the human breast, regardless of a god.

True, we differ in where we see Hope comes from. However, more importantly, where does hope originate from? Is hope a social construct too? It brings us back to the question we all have to answer with a statement of faith; where do we all/it all originate from? For the believer it is the belief in God, for the unbeliever (strange term in this context, isn't?) it is the belief in a big bang. I say belief as it requires belief to assume certain particles existed before the big bang... after all, a big bang needed to have something to 'bang' with?

[quote=brianrees;5892074]

That splits our respective takes on reality right down the middle, and there is no possibility of any philosophical agreement whilst we maintain these diametrically opposed positions. Whether debate is even possible on that basis is arguable, but we could try, I suppose.

I agree, however, moreso I am glad you didn't stop here as an informed argument does not require agreement to be fruitful!

[quote=brianrees;5892074]

This reference to the invisibility of the wind is surely allegorical, a beautiful metaphor, but one that nevertheless fails to stand up to logical scrutiny. The existence of the wind has never been disputed, as you say, since we can see, measure and feel its effects all around us. Not so God...

I humbly disagree here, but this will only make sense in the wider framework of my reasoning, which will come later.

[quote=brianrees;5892074]

If we happened to be living in a civilisation that had no history of belief in a Deity, I contend that neither of us could have any experience of that Deity at work in our lives or in the world, either directly or indirectly.

I would say, rather, that it is precisely because you have inherited an existing concept of an invisible god that it is possible for you to conceptualise him as you do - you are drawing on millennia of unproved religious belief as a basis for your chosen way of interpreting the world.

Yes and no. Although your reasoning makes sense, it does not hold a conclusive truth. As we do not have the evidence of a western civilisation which has no religious history, we cannot simply say that without history the concept of a Deity would be non-existent. What we do now is that tribes which long remained undiscovered always have a spiritual concept to their community life. Christians would say that this is pout forward in Romans where Paul writes about God putting almost like a mark upon creation and humanity which gives knowledge of a Deity. Furthermore as a Christian I believe conceptualisation of that Deity is found in the Bible, which is seen as God's revelation and ultimately demonstrated in Jesus. As for Jesus not belonging within the Bible, I urge you to search further than recent populist media and film explorations. Gnosticism embraces Jesus just as Islam does, however, within what context is where the question really lies. Forgive me if you have looked further than what I mentioned. However, I say this as even recent so called highly researched documentaries I have seen in the UK were full of research errors, methodological flaws and most of all a reliance on suggestion and belief that would put an orthodox reformed dutchman to shame! I have yet to see a completely well informed documentary from either side of this debate (which is interesting in itself).

[quote=brianrees;5892074]

Far from agreeing with you that we rarely see God working through the hands of humans (if that is what you are saying) - I would immediately point out to you what I've tried to express several times before on these fora - mankind deserves more credit for an umpteen number of tremendous achievements, not least in the field of medicine.

I must have put things a bit wobbly there, but I did not say rarely, however, I do belief there is lack of it in the sense that current efforts could and should be intensified.

[quote=brianrees;5892074]

If you were to send a Christian missionary to say, an area of Africa which is being devastated by the AIDS epidemic - armed only with a bible and a prayer - I very much doubt if we would see a tangible result.

I totally agree with you here. I think a whole understanding of that what the Bible teaches brings us to a holistic view of humanity and its needs. I think it is a true shame and perhaps even nothing but sin to look back on a history of missionaries who did not look holistically at their mission. Even more so since often they were used by those in power to advance not religion but dominance.


[quote=brianrees;5892074]

Send in some man-made medicines, however, (with or without the prayers), and the resulting alleviation of suffering would be demonstrable. But even so, God still gets the credit for this - rather unfairly, I would say.




Sorry, but I don't see that at all....

I'm sorry you don't agree with me here, but I can name many examples. From people living two houses down my road to an organisation like IJM (International Justice Mission - IJM Home) to Bono.

[quote=brianrees;5892074]

God, (not that we agree he exists) - may be allowing evil for the most obvious reason that springs to mind - He is powerless to stop it... If he had such power, He's clearly not exercising any of it to benefit the starving and the dispossessed of the world. - And as I just said, it's always down to us mere mortals to do that work entirely without an INVISIBLE MEANS OF SUPPORT (if you pardon my slight twist to such a familiar phrase).

As for Jesus - I don't think he belongs in the bible in the first place - ask the Gnostics. (But of course you can't - the early church saw to that when it hounded all dissent into extinction).

I will never say I find it easy to accept God's sovereignity in the face of so much evil. However, this is suppose where it returns to faith, hope and love. But also responsibility. Within our world we see evil which is clearly manmade and boils down to greed and the lust for power and which bears the hallmark of injustice, pain and oppression. Within humanity itself there lies something that is rotten to use a very plain word. Within God's provision lies the transformation of people to stand up for Hope. Now that is my belief and opinion and I know you will disagree as it returns us to the same question as before: where does hope come from, or even originate from. Within that framework too I do see Him alleviate many things through using ordinary people. It often actually comes down to obedience.

[quote=brianrees;5892074]

You won't like my answer to this, but I would say, rely on your humanity and your conscience and you won't go far wrong. Expect no Heavenly reward - and if there is a god after all, let him surprise by revealing himself to you after you die ... 'cos no way is he going to do that whilst you're alive - sorry.

I think as often is the case there is a fundamental misunderstanding between believers and non-believers about what they believe. I don't wonder though. This forum is full of people who at the core have smilar beliefs as me, yet fail to communicate it in a way that steers from away from the inner-crowd-bible-belt-answers (if that's even a word ). Only look at some of the answers to this thread. Similarly I have to admit I often have assumptions and pre-organised ideas of what non-believers think. In this case you assume I'm waiting and hoping for a heavenly reward. This is actually a complete misunderstanding of the whole christian faith and the purpose of Christ. Yes, my reward is already there and is in fact assured and so in that sense I do not hope, I trust. However, more importantly within certain Christian circles and I'm sure that is what you are hinting at here, the misunderstanding of the gospel had lead to a 'I'm waiting for the Kingdom of Heaven'-attitude without realising that that Kingdom started 2000 years ago, right here, right now. Life here now is just as important as life after death and within this life there is an enormous task of bringing hope and justice to a broken world.

I'm not waiting for a revelation either. I have had many, mainly outside of the historical frameworks of 'my' religion.

At the end I can't help but think we have the same burden. The burden to see a world being relieved from so much evil, injustice, suffering or whatever you may want to call it. Not saying nothing has yet been achieved, but affirming more needs to be done. Our actual difference simply lies within where we believe all those things originate from.

Thanks again for your reply. It is always good to debate things respectfully and to stay thinking!

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by GenesisNemesis

Whenever I ask Christians why God allows Evil, the answer is always "because God honors our choice whether or not to believe in Him," or something like that. But if God truly honored our choice, why doesn't He give tangible evidence of His existence? Why is His "evidence" always on par with Elvis Presley fanatics who cry "Elvis lives!"? Why is His "evidence" always as credible as a ghost sighting, or an alien abduction story?

God does my friend, the creation screams, there's a God. Even if God showed Himself people still won't believe. Jesus proved that.