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It is very comforting to me to know that I will be going to heaven when I die. But I don't believe in Jesus Christ for fire insurance. I believe that creation speaks to a creator. I believe there is more than enought evidence that Jesus Christ lived and made a huge impact on the world. We changed our whole concept of time because of Him. There are more than just biblical accounts of Jesus. About the impact that he made on the world. I believe for so many more reasons then than it is comforting to me. If you would read it, I would send you a book "A Case for Christ" by Lee Stroble.
Yes, there are a lot of books out about Christ, and if you were born in India, you'd be a Hindu. If you were born in the Middle East or Indonesia, you might be a Muslim.
If it is comforting for you to think you will go to a "better place" after you die, then do it.
But there is no evidence for it, and this alleged comforting creator doesn't provide you with a shred of evidence for heaven, whether or not some man named Yeshua lived long ago or not.
Well there's no way to confirm or deny that everything is a creation and thus needing a creator but for...
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I believe there is more than enought evidence that Jesus Christ lived
I'd like to see that evidence.
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and made a huge impact on the world. We changed our whole concept of time because of Him.
To the victor go the spoils. The religion adopted by Constantine and later the powers of the Western world dominated history. The men who bought into the religion did many things in it's name.
Quote:
There are more than just biblical accounts of Jesus.
It is very comforting to me to know that I will be going to heaven when I die. But I don't believe in Jesus Christ for fire insurance. I believe that creation speaks to a creator. I believe there is more than enought evidence that Jesus Christ lived and made a huge impact on the world. We changed our whole concept of time because of Him. There are more than just biblical accounts of Jesus. About the impact that he made on the world. I believe for so many more reasons then than it is comforting to me. If you would read it, I would send you a book "A Case for Christ" by Lee Stroble.
I agree with you, I know I have a home in Heaven with the Lord. Jesus said in John 14 1-3 "Don't be troubled, you trust in God now trust in me. There are many rooms in my Fathers home, and I am going to prepare a place for you. If this were not so I would tell plainly. When everything is ready I will come and get you so that you will always be with me where I am".
Well there's no way to confirm or deny that everything is a creation and thus needing a creator but for...
I'd like to see that evidence.
To the victor go the spoils. The religion adopted by Constantine and later the powers of the Western world dominated history. The men who bought into the religion did many things in it's name.
Like....?
The Writings of Flavius Josephus
In Rome, in the year 93 AD, the Roman historian Flavius Josephus published his extensive history of the Jews. In discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, writings attributed to Josephus include this revealing account that points not only to Jesus of Nazareth having lived, but that He was the Messiah, and rose from the dead:
" About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared. " - Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 �63 (Based on the translation of Louis H. Feldman, The Loeb Classical Library.)
Some scholars maintain that the references to Jesus as Messiah in this passage are later interpolations by Christians, but just for a moment let's focus just on the historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. On that basis, the account by Josephus of the death of James, brother of Jesus, widely accepted even amongst the most independently minded scholars, is further confirmation that Jesus existed as a historical figure:
" The younger Ananus, who had been appointed to the high priesthood, was rash in his temper and unusually daring. He followed the school of the Sadducees, who are indeed more heartless than any of the other Jews, as I have already explained, when they sit in judgment. Possessed of such a character, Ananus thought that he had a favorable opportunity because Festus was dead and Albinas was still on the way. And so he convened the judges of the Sanhedrin, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, the one called Christ, whose name was James, and certain others, and accusing them of having transgressed the law delivered them up to be stoned. " (Jewish Antiquities 20:29 Louis Feldman translation)
Just one source... let me know if you would like more.
Josephus is really the best thing there is and that's so mired on controversy that it's tough to decide if any of either of those passages are legitimate.
• The testimony didn't suddenly appear until Eusebius, c. 316
• Early church fathers prior to Eusebius who refer to Josephus make no mention of the testimony. We're talking Origen, Justin, Theophilius, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Hippolytus, Minucius Feliz, and Anatolius
• Even later christian writers apparently worked from a copy of Josephus without the testimony such as Chrysostom, Methodius, and Photius in the 9th century
• the inconceivability that a Jew would refer to him as messiah or in any way that he was divine
• Origen clearly states Josephus did not believe there was a Jesus who was christ
• That the extraordinary things claimed would be merely mentioned and not explored or written about in greater detail, especially since Josephus was a voluminous writer who wrote extensively about men of even minor importance.
• The passage interrupts the narrative, like the way "under god" interrupts the original flow of the Pledge of Allegiance
• The use of "tribe" didn't start until Eusebius, who is looked at as the one who planted the testimony passage which would not be a surprise since the 4th century was a century that saw a lot of such literary forgery
• His mention of about a dozen Jesuses casts doubt on who Ananus' brother was, giving I guess 1 in 12 chance he was referring to the Jesus of christianity
• Really curious why Josephus makes no mention on Jesus' assault on the temple
Tacitus, a Roman historian, in his Annals, c. AD 115, describes the Roman
Emperor Nero's actions after the great fire of Rome, c. AD 64:
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.
Annals 15 -44
” Mischievous Superstition”.
Exitiabilis is the latin word for mischievous. It means destructive, fatal, deadly. So it would seem that what tacitus actually said was it was “a destructive or fatal or deadly superstition”. He was calling Christianity evil. So, it is obvious that he was not a Christian, thus he would not be sharing about the death of Jesus to support the fact that there was a historical Jesus that was killed by Pontius Pilate. Note that Tacitus is not referring to the death of the Jesus as supersititon but the practice of Jesus’ followers.
A famous historian, reputed in his own days as being extremely careful and factual, Tacitus would not have been prone to writing about a movement without first checking the Roman archives to see if he could not get the most accurate report possible. He wrote his history of Rome covering the death of Augustus to the death of Domitian, that's 14-96 AD. He used earlier works by historians cross checking them with each other. He sought to verify his facts, something unusual in the writing of the time. He clearly has bias as he hated Domitian and wasn't a great fan of Tiberius, but this would have no bearing on mentions of Christ.
Some say that Tactitus also wrote about Hercules so his works are not valid. Read our response to this accusation.
Suetonius-Gentile Historian
Another Roman writer who shows his acquaintance with Christ and the Christians is Suetonius (A.D. 75-160). It has been noted that Suetonius considered Christ (Chrestus) as a Roman insurgent who stirred up seditions under the reign of Claudius (A.D. 41-54): "Judaeos, impulsore Chresto, assidue tumultuantes (Claudius) Roma expulit" (Clau., xxv).
Phlegon-Gentile Historian
"Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus and no other (eclipse); it is clear that he did not know from his sources about any (similar) eclipse in previous times . . . and this is shown by the historical account of Tiberius Caesar." Origen and Philopon, De. opif. mund. II21
"And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place ...” Origen Against Celsus
The historical character of Jesus Christ is also attested by the hostile Jewish literature of the subsequent centuries. His birth is ascribed to an illicit ("Acta Pilati" in Thilo, "Codex apocryph. N.T., I, 526; cf. Justin, "Apol.", I, 35), or even an adulterous, union of His parents (Origen, "Contra Cels.," I, 28, 32).
References
There are many Jewish writings that show traces of acquaintance with the murder of the Holy Innocents (Wagenseil, "Confut. Libr.Toldoth", 15; Eisenmenger op. cit., I, 116; Schottgen, op. cit., II, 667), with the flight into Egypt (cf. Josephus, "Ant." XIII, xiii), with the stay of Jesus in the Temple at the age of twelve (Schottgen, op. cit., II, 696), with the call of the disciples ("Sanhedrin", 43a; Wagenseil, op. cit., 17; Schottgen, loc. cit., 713), with His miracles (Origen, "Contra Cels", II, 48; Wagenseil, op. cit., 150; Gemara "Sanhedrin" fol. 17); "Schabbath", fol. 104b; Wagenseil, op.cit., 6, 7, 17), with His claim to be God (Origen, "Contra Cels.", I, 28; cf. Eisenmenger, op. cit., I, 152; Schottgen, loc. cit., 699) with His betrayal by Judas and His death (Origen, "Contra cels.", II, 9, 45, 68, 70; Buxtorf, op. cit., 1458; Lightfoot, "Hor. Heb.", 458, 490, 498; Eisenmenger, loc. cit., 185; Schottgen, loc. cit.,699 700; cf."Sanhedrin", vi, vii). Celsus (Origen, "Contra Cels.", II, 55) tries to throw doubt on the Resurrection, while Toldoth (cf. Wagenseil, 19) repeats the Jewish fiction that the body of Jesus had been stolen from the sepulchre.
So significant is Jesus in man's history that the Encyclopedia Britannica has 20,000 words in describing this person, Jesus. His description took more space than was given to Aristotle, Cicero, Alexander, Julius Caesar, Buddha, Confucius, Mohammed or Napolean Bonaparte. Why would there be so much material on a man who was never born?
Here is a quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica concerning the testimony of the many independent secular accounts of Jesus of Nazareth:
These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds by several authors at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries.
Jesus is recorded as a fact, as is His death, burial and missing body in the Reader's Digest Book of Facts, 1989.
Well, that settles that! If Readers Digest says it's so, then it's so. End of discussion.
The Readers Digest is NEVER wrong.
Do I detect a note of hostility in your post? Why are you so angry regarding this subject Padgett2? I not asking so I can bash you for it... I would honestly like to know. I have read some of your other post... It seems like the posts on God are the ones that get you the most riled up. If I am wrong, I apologize.
I'm not angry, nor am I "riled: up. I just wish to point out that sometime some Christians use faulty reasoning.
I don't see why it's so hard for you to understand that others do not agree with you. They may be correct. You may be correct. It's your insistence that YOU are correct and others are wrong that is unacceptable.
There is no need to apologise. It's not the posts about God that I find irritating, it's the attitude of people that feel that they KNOW the Truth.
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