Church in the Capitol Building during Jefferson's years as President (America, after life)

[FlashTheCash]

Church in the Capitol Building during Jefferson's years as President - as described by Margaret Bayard Smith

"...I have called these Sunday assemblies in the capitol, a congregation, but the almost exclusive appropriation of that word to religious assemblies, prevents its being a descriptive term as applied in the present case, since the gay company who thronged the H. R. looked very little like a religious assembly. The occasion presented for display was not only a novel, but a favourable one for the youth, beauty and fashion of the city, Georgetown and environs. The members of Congress, gladly gave up their seats for such fair auditors, and either lounged in the lobbies, or round the fire places, or stood beside the ladies of their acquaintance. This sabbathday-resort became so fashionable, that the floor of the house offered insufficient space, the platform behind the Speaker's chair, and every spot where a chair could be wedged in was crowded with ladies in their gayest costume and their attendant beaux and who led them to their seats with the same gallantry as is exhibited in a ball room. Smiles, nods, whispers, nay sometimes tittering marked their recognition of each other, and beguiled the tedium of the service. Often, when cold, a lady would leave her seat and led by her attending beau would make her way through the crowd to one of the fire-places where she could laugh and talk at her ease. One of the officers of the house, followed by his attendant with a great bag over his shoulder, precisely at 12 o'clock, would make his way through the hall to the depository of letters to put them in the mail-bag, which sometimes had a most ludicrous effect, and always diverted attention from the preacher. The musick was as little in union with devotional feelings, as the place. The marine-band, were the performers. Their scarlet uniform, their various instruments, made quite a dazzling appearance in the gallery. The marches they played were good and inspiring, but in their attempts to accompany the psalm-singing of the congregation, they completely failed and after a while, the practice was discontinued, -- it was too ridiculous."

Here's another description - by a foreign diplomat:

In going to assemblies one had sometimes to drive three or four miles within the city bounds, and very often at the great risk of an overthrow, or of being what is termed 'stalled,' or stuck in the mud. .... Cards were a great resource during the evening, and gaming was all the fashion, at brag especially, for the men who frequented society were chiefly from Virginia or the Western States, and were very fond of this the worst gambling of all games, as being one of countenance as well as of cards. Loo was the innocent diversion of the ladies, who when they looed pronounced the word in a very mincing manner....

Church service can certainly never be called an amusement; but from the variety of persons who are allowed to preach in the House of Representatives, there was doubtless some alloy of curiosity in the motives which led one to go there. Though the regular Chaplain was a Presbyterian, sometimes a Methodist, a minister of the Church of England, or a Quaker, or sometimes even a woman took the speaker's chair; and I don't think that there was much devotion among the majority. The New Englanders, generally speaking, are very religious; though there are many exceptions, I cannot say so much for the Marylanders, and still less for the Virginians.

[b. frank]

And the first American atheist in a high political position.
...also happens to be my favorite founder.

He could have done more for future race relations in the US - but I'm very thankful that we had a heathen Virginian running the show for a while.

[sean98125]

Jefferson was probably pretty close to being a Unitarian, if anything. But he was no atheist.

[b. frank]

Originally Posted by sean98125

Jefferson was probably pretty close to being a Unitarian, if anything. But he was no atheist.

Of coure he would never label himself that way.
In the 18th century - he may as well have called himself a witchmonger.

But if you read extensively into his writings, there is more evidence that he did not believe in God (as a definite deity), then there is for any other position.

[Padgett2]

Interesting. Thanks.

I think I would agree with Sean about this. The "believers" of that day were probably a lot different from the ones of today.

[sean98125]

Originally Posted by b. frank

Of coure he would never label himself that way.
In the 18th century - he may as well have called himself a witchmonger.

But if you read extensively into his writings, there is more evidence that he did not believe in God (as a definite deity), then there is for any other position.

But, on the other hand, he regularly attended church and believed that the future of American faith would be the Unitarian model that was around at the time.

[JakeDog]

A lot of the founding fathers' private views on religon were probably far more agnostic and possibly atheist than they would ever publicly admit. Benjamin Franklin, sending a private letter to Thomas Paine urging him not to publish "Age of Reason" basically conceded Paine made good arguments, but that he should not publish the book b/c the "people" needed religon to behave and get by. I suspect many politicians of today are similar- especially the neoconservatives that follow the teachings of Leo Strauss who taught that altough religon was false, the average person could not confront that reality, so it was important for leaders to stress the importance of religon.

[b. frank]

Originally Posted by JakeDog

A lot of the founding fathers' private views on religon were probably far more agnostic and possibly atheist than they would ever publicly admit. Benjamin Franklin, sending a private letter to Thomas Paine urging him not to publish "Age of Reason" basically conceded Paine made good arguments, but that he should not publish the book b/c the "people" needed religon to behave and get by. I suspect many politicians of today are similar- especially the neoconservatives that follow the teachings of Leo Strauss who taught that altough religon was false, the average person could not confront that reality, so it was important for leaders to stress the importance of religon.

Exactly.
The Founding Fathers had very little faith that their relatively uneducated populace could actually run (or even understand) the system, so they took over in almost all areas.
They wanted to get rid of monarch-style ruling, but they had to admit that they, themselves, were far more equipped to run a government than the citizenry. Some were far more paternal than others, but paternalism was generally considered the best course of action.
So, just like today, leaders such as Jefferson had no choice but to be religious publically since it was already in place as a unifying theme.
It was hard enough back then to get people behind the idea of a unified nation - they couldn't let little things like religious differences get in the way.

[FlashTheCash]

Originally Posted by b. frank

And the first American atheist in a high political position.
...also happens to be my favorite founder.

He could have done more for future race relations in the US - but I'm very thankful that we had a heathen Virginian running the show for a while.

Didn't Jefferson reveal his religious creed to Mrs. Smith in a letter to her? He said, if I remember correctly, that he believed in a God and an after life with rewards and punishments to be determined by ones works.

[b. frank]

Originally Posted by FlashTheCash

Didn't Jefferson reveal his religious creed to Mrs. Smith in a letter to her? He said, if I remember correctly, that he believed in a God and an after life with rewards and punishments to be determined by ones works.

Hmm. Actually I don't know. If he wrote that (especially in a personal letter that he did not expect to be read by the public) than my theory may have a big hole. However, he often dropped lines like the one you describe above that went against religious dogma for sure (the key being "determined by one's works" rather than one's beliefs).
I do know, however, that Jefferson blatantly contradicts himself many times in his writings. He was wily, and hard to pin down on "the issues". So I don't think that we can really pin a definite religious creed on him. I see him as an atheist (or at least agnostic) perhaps more than he saw himself that way. I think he was always curious about religion, and may have changed his mind about it frequently. When I was studying him more intently, I didn't focus on his religious beliefs as much as his political ideas.