Religion will eventually become obsolete (prophecies, Jerusalem, miracle, legislation)

[b. frank]

Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds

There is two ways you can look at Jesus Relationship or Religion. I bet you walked away from RELIGION, if you have ever believed.

Despite the best efforts of some posters here - I am not convinced that there is any difference between following a religion (Christianity) and having a relationship with Jesus. The 2 things cannot be separated because, one way or another, Jesus spawned a religion. It is called Christianity and anybody who believes that Jesus is connected to a god is a Christian.

How could it be any other way? I keep reading people write that they don't follow a religion - but only follow Jesus. Impossible! Perhaps if they would go so far as to say "I am not a Christian" this would make sense - but saying that would be an absurdity because if you are not a Christian then you would not follow Jesus. Not in the way that Christians do anyway. So you are either a Christian (a believer that the things written in the Bible about Jesus are true) or you are not.

Now, the idea that Jesus was simply a man with some good moral ideas is not lost on me - I get that POV, but those who have it are NOT Christian until they go the extra step and believe that Jesus was a supernatural being. And those who believe that are, by definition, followers of a religion.

So, once again, "Jesus relationship" and "Religion" can not be separated.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by b. frank

The 2 things cannot be separated because, one way or another, Jesus spawned a religion. It is called Christianity and anybody who believes that Jesus is connected to a god is a Christian.

As far as I know Jesus never considered himself a Christian. So either the Christians do not know who Jesus is, or there has only been 1 Christian and he died at the cross.

I do not consider myself a Christian since I do not believe in many Christian dogmas, but I do consider myself a follower of Jesus. I do not claim to have a personal relationship with Jesus, but I know that I view Jesus differently than most other Christians. In that regard one could say that my view of Jesus constitutes a 'personal' relation with Jesus.
I only follow Jesus the Shepard and not the other sheep (other religious leaders/authorities).

[b. frank]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Originally Posted by b. frankAs far as I know Jesus never considered himself a Christian. So either the Christians do not know who Jesus is, or there has only been 1 Christian and he died at the cross.

This is exactly the type of logic that the Christians who claim not to be religious use. I don't buy it. This is one question that I can see a simple answer for:
1) Jesus never considered himself a Christian because the religion hadn't formed yet. Christians do know who Jesus is; he is the major figure in their religion.
2) Jesus was not the one and only Christian; as Christians will tell you - Christians are all over the place.
However Jesus thought of himself, he has been made into a religious icon and he has a religion based on him. It is called Christianity and people who believe that he is what he said he was are called Christians because that is their RELIGION.

[b. frank]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

I do not consider myself a Christian since I do not believe in many Christian dogmas, but I do consider myself a follower of Jesus. I do not claim to have a personal relationship with Jesus, but I know that I view Jesus differently than most other Christians. In that regard one could say that my view of Jesus constitutes a 'personal' relation with Jesus.
I only follow Jesus the Shepard and not the other sheep (other religious leaders/authorities).

You don't claim to have a relationship with Jesus because you are not part of the Christian religion. If you did claim that, then you would be a Christian.

What do "non-religious Christians" think of Tricky's post? Are you and he alike in your non-religious beliefs? Or are you actually Christian?

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by b. frank

You don't claim to have a relationship with Jesus because you are not part of the Christian religion. If you did claim that, then you would be a Christian.

I dunno, I believe that Christians agree with me that claiming to be a Christian does not make you a Christian.
I am not a Christian simply because I do not believe that Jesus is Christ, but I do accept that Jesus is my saviour (except that I still do not believe that Jesus = God).
I just don't buy the whole Jesus is the son of God who is God concept.
But I do believe that Jesus is a path to God, but so are Ghandi and Martin Luther King JR for example.

[GCSTroop]

Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds

Actually, I see were your coming from. I guess during our conversation I thought you were in your 30's and much to my surprise you are in your early 20's. So from 15-23 you have decided in your long lived life there is No God.
I am not going to go any further in asking you questions. I have learned a lot from our conversation and I THANK YOU.

This is the only thing I felt the need to address. It seems I gave out the wrong impression. I said I walked away from a belief in Jesus as a son of God and as God being some sort of omnipotent being. I think you're confusing "walked away" in terms of me approaching something as to "left my belief in God" in which I was always skeptical. From the earliest years of my life I could never quite do the mental gymnastics required to believe in God. I remember even at five years old thinking to myself in the shower "I think I believe in God, but how could something be there forever, and why is he watching me take a shower?"

I had a girlfriend who was what I would call less than pushy but very strong in her convictions. She tried to teach me about Jesus, God, etc... Was I coming close to the idea? I'd be lying if I say I wasn't. I just couldn't get past the God concept. To me, Jesus is more of an after effect of God. In order for Jesus to be what the Bible claims he is than there must be a God and that particular deity MUST be the Christian one. Well, I find that to be wholly illogical.

As a side note, I was not raised to be an atheist. I was told from both parents that God was a very real entity. My logic as a five year old hasn't changed much from now. It's gotten a little more developed, but the same questions that my five year old mind wanted to ask are the same question my twenty-five year old mind feels have not been adequately answered.

Finally, I do look forward to more engaging conversation. Thank You.

[Visvaldis]

Religion is obsolete.
Belief in religion will become obsolete the same day human ignorance becomes obsolete.

[.....think]

Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds

There is two ways you can look at Jesus Relationship or Religion. I bet you walked away from RELIGION, if you have ever believed. I guess it's just another way to look at Jesus and consider if I'm tried of Religion I'm I really tried of Jesus. I have questioned MANY things in the Christian world and believe me if I could change some things I would. The Bible has been misused, this was not Gods work. Money and power has as much a part to play in all the dirty deeds.

As I see it some do follow Muhammad, more then the religion since the Islam faith says,"Muhammad preaches peace and love" look what some are doing in the name of RELIGION.

There is a difference, if you weren't so strong on proving me wrong!!

PLZ dont say the Muslims are the bad ones do i have bring up Christains top killers of the world again.

2nd no the bible hasnt been rewritten plz read the old testement before the new its like someone giving you a sticker now people are telling you the man is bad. and done awful stuff. your opion is bios. and reading the old shouldn't hurt because gods perfect ........right?...........or is he.......... read the old testament to find out more!!!!

[bobmulk]

People have been saying for millenia that religion will pass away. The only ones who say it are the hatemongers who can't stand any religion--especially Christianity.

Religion will never go away. The very suggestion is beyond stupid.

[Visvaldis]

Originally Posted by bobmulk

People have been saying for millenia that religion will pass away. The only ones who say it are the hatemongers who can't stand any religion--especially Christianity.

Religion will never go away. The very suggestion is beyond stupid.

If only this could be explained using reason and logic.