Chit chat (soul, reincarnation, contradiction, Christian)

[moonsavvy]

Originally Posted by Travelling fella

btw we should thank moonsavvy for coming up with such an interesting thread!!

Trav you're so cute.

ummmm yeah what are suppose to talk about again?

I guess I was wanted a "get to know you thread"


My name is moonsavvy and I enjoy nature, flowers, fitness, children, laughter, dancing, and long walks on the beach.

JerZ does this sound like an eharmony profile?

[nay624]

curious...fella, cuz I know how I measure spiritual growth, but it wasnt untill I read those words that I realized I'm not quite sure "how" I measure.
hmmmmmmmm..........<-- pondering).

Life and death Yes, mostly I feel I work in the "art" of death, painless, with dignity and
without chaos. Most of my experience is with the 'older' adult, but a close second are the 35-55 y/o, tragic. although every death is tragic. I actually feel honored to be present with my patients when they die.

Death is a part of life. Once I realized I can do nothing to keep anyone here on earth if it was their "time" to go....My job became...a blessing, a service to God.
I still do all medically possible to 'try' to keep someone alive, but its out of my control. The body can only hold on so long....and I believe as the Bible states, "a mans days are numbered". I dont know..It helps me cope to know I am not in control, just an instrument.

[nay624]

It may sound morbid,,, but I love trying to keep 'em here. The body's physiology is like a puzzle....an ever changing balancing game, you do one thing for the heart, it changes the lungs, and so on.....I dont think we have 1/2 a clue as to what the body is really capable of ( purely physiolocal, of course).

[Haaziq]

Originally Posted by Nikk

God created the Universe. Since God is logical, he ordered the universe using laws. Math is a way for us to study the underlying laws of logic that God created. So, you are probably feeling a closeness to the creator. God is untagible and omnipresent, pure and infinite too!

Since the laws of logic are not part of nature in that they dwell in our reasoning minds and yet nature obeys them, then maybe math is a function of this spirit world that you desire to be part of?

Since the laws of logic are not matterialistic and not tangeble then how can scientist use them to disprove God? By there very nature they are non-matterialistic. Any scientist and any mathemetician must believe them to exist, yet deny simultaneously that anything that is non matterialistic doesn't exist (In an effort to disprove the existance of God).

There are so many flaws with this post I don't know where to start.

1. Have you studied logical reasoning yourself? If no, you are in no position to say what is or isn't logical. Belief in god and logic can not coexist. Saying otherwise just proves you don't know logic at all.

2. The notion that math is part of any kind of spiritual world is laughable.

3. You're wrong. Gravity isn't tangible either, but we know it exists. Logic exists in the universe and we can prove it. That's why 1+1=2. Adding two singles and getting anything other than two is not possible if logic exists. Therefore, the laws of logic exist in our universe.

[nay624]

forgot the g

[ainulinale]

Originally Posted by Haaziq

There are so many flaws with this post I don't know where to start.

1. Have you studied logical reasoning yourself? If no, you are in no position to say what is or isn't logical. Belief in god and logic can not coexist. Saying otherwise just proves you don't know logic at all.

Christopher Langan (considered the smartest man in America) would probably disagree with you there.

Originally Posted by Haaziq

3. You're wrong. Gravity isn't tangible either, but we know it exists. Logic exists in the universe and we can prove it. That's why 1+1=2. Adding two singles and getting anything other than two is not possible if logic exists. Therefore, the laws of logic exist in our universe.

BTW, you can't prove human logic is right by using human logic. The fact that you cannot prove that your consciousness is ordered in such a way as to perceive true reality reveals that you cannot ever be absolutely certain about anything.

[coosjoaquin]

Sorry for taking so long to respond, ive was in the middle of a complicated situation yesterday

Originally Posted by Travelling fella

Ahhh math, something so pure and infinite.
untangible yet omnipresent.
not matter, not energy, just ideas meaning it's one of the highest expressions, and yet they can be used to meassure energy and matter.

Its incredible that maths happens to be something that gets down to the deepest confines of philosophy with its "hey lets make stuff up as long as it doesn't contradicts itself" attitude.

In science we base our observations around reality but mathematics doesn't care and is independent of all this. Rather than mathematics being part of reality, it is reality itself that borrows stuff from mathematics.

Consider the natural numbers 1,2,3,4........

Now its easy to see how this fits with our existence. For example i own 1 television, 4 wooden chairs and there are 45678909876543 crumpled up papers with weird symbols written on them in my room

Say i extend this line to the integers ...-3 -2-1 0 1 2 3.... Well now the uses become trickier after all, what do the negatives actually mean? how can i have -2 potatoes? Sure you could say that i owe you 2 potatoes or that -19 mph is the same as 19 mph the other way but what is a negative in more physical terms? Scientists over a few centuries ago found one thing: charge.
F=Kq1q2/r^2 ect ect

So it seems that sometimes this completely made up system shows up in nature but is not necessarily a part of nature. The best example of this is with imaginary numbers. Gerolamo Cardano, Leonhard Euler and Descrates all had a field day with their curiosity when pressed to find answers such as x^2+1=0
x=±√-1
What number could possibly square to a negative if:
axa=a^2
-ax-a=a^2

Its impossible! no number in our real number line will ever square to a negative. So what did these people do? well rather than just leaving it as that, they decided to make up a new number line perpendicular to ours. Suddenly we have the answer to x^2+1=0 by saying that √-1= i


And so we get complex numbers which are made up of both real and imaginary parts.

But surely what is the point of this? imaginary numbers were just things made up by a few people about 500 years ago. How can this is any way reflect real life?

Well doing the Maclaurin series(i can expand on this for the lurkers out there):

f(x)=e^x= 1+x+(x^2)/2+(x^3)/6..........
g(x)=e^-x=1-x+(x^2)/2-(x^3)/6.......

e^x+e^-x=2+x^2+(x^4)/12.....
since i^2=-1 then

e^ix+e^-ix=2-x^2+(x^4)/12-(x^6)/360....

(e^ix+e^-ix)/2=1-(1/2)x^2+(x^4)/24-(x^6)/720....=cos(x)
(e^ix-e^-ix)/2i=sin(x)

Well hang on, so imaginary numbers are used in trigonometry? You mean that every time i throw a frisbee, imaginary numbers are somehow related?
Worse still if we look at quantum physics. Imaginary numbers pop up every 3 seconds there. Figures.

Its this sort of thing that has caused a world within a world in mathematics. Mathematicians themselves have become divided into 2 groups: the pure and the applied.

As the name implies the pure are to do with aspects of mathematics itself(eg: proving conjectures) whilst the applied are to do with using the mathematics in real world prolems(eg: fluid mechanics)

Pure
Analysis
Algebra(hard!!)
.....

Applied

Mechanics
Statistics
.....

Now as my teacher puts it, the pure mathematicians think that the applied are cretins who don't know how to use maths. In retrospect, the applied ones think that the pure are insane, spending their days living in an office like social outcasts.

Originally Posted by Travelling fella

why are math infinite my friend? i know i'm asking something really hard but it'd be interesting to know what's your take on it

There are several reasons. A big one pertains to a paradigm shift with mathematicians back early 20th century. You see just like scientists a century earlier there was a growing belief that perhaps everything about mathematics might one day be understood. People like Bertrand Russell were thinking that perhaps they could use set theory to organize mathematics into an understandable bundle. Whenever they found self references, they would avoid them by adding layer after layer of limitations making the foundations of mathematics look more like the sediments in the grand canyon.

Alfred Whitehead for example worked with Russell to produce a 360 or so page book proving that 1+1=2(dont believe me? University of Michigan Historical Math Collection)

Even someone like David Hilbert, one of the most influential mathematicians of the time was into the idea of organizing everything in mathematics and rounding the edges off. It seemed like this indomitable mountain was about to be conquered. That is until Godel came along

Now Kurt Godel changed everything with his incompleteness theorems. The most relevant part of them being that even in a self-consistent system, the axioms cannot be proven. That it will be impossible to prove certain conjectures no matter how much time and effort we put into them.

To put this into perspective think of Fermats Last theorem. A problem thought up by an amateur took generations of mathematicians before it was actually proven. Neither Euler, Dirichlet nor Galois could crack it(though they made progress) and it wasn't until 357 years later that finally Andrew Wiles bought such a giant down to its knees.

[Travelling fella]

Originally Posted by coosjoaquin

Sorry for taking so long to respond, ive was in the middle of a complicated situation yesterday

Its incredible that maths happens to be something that gets down to the deepest confines of philosophy with its "hey lets make stuff up as long as it doesn't contradicts itself" attitude.

In science we base our observations around reality but mathematics doesn't care and is independent of all this. Rather than mathematics being part of reality, it is reality itself that borrows stuff from mathematics.

Consider the natural numbers 1,2,3,4........

Now its easy to see how this fits with our existence. For example i own 1 television, 4 wooden chairs and there are 45678909876543 crumpled up papers with weird symbols written on them in my room

Say i extend this line to the integers ...-3 -2-1 0 1 2 3.... Well now the uses become trickier after all, what do the negatives actually mean? how can i have -2 potatoes? Sure you could say that i owe you 2 potatoes or that -19 mph is the same as 19 mph the other way but what is a negative in more physical terms? Scientists over a few centuries ago found one thing: charge.
F=Kq1q2/r^2 ect ect

So it seems that sometimes this completely made up system shows up in nature but is not necessarily a part of nature. The best example of this is with imaginary numbers. Gerolamo Cardano, Leonhard Euler and Descrates all had a field day with their curiosity when pressed to find answers such as x^2+1=0
x=±√-1
What number could possibly square to a negative if:
axa=a^2
-ax-a=a^2

Its impossible! no number in our real number line will ever square to a negative. So what did these people do? well rather than just leaving it as that, they decided to make up a new number line perpendicular to ours. Suddenly we have the answer to x^2+1=0 by saying that √-1= i


And so we get complex numbers which are made up of both real and imaginary parts.

But surely what is the point of this? imaginary numbers were just things made up by a few people about 500 years ago. How can this is any way reflect real life?

Well doing the Maclaurin series(i can expand on this for the lurkers out there):

f(x)=e^x= 1+x+(x^2)/2+(x^3)/6..........
g(x)=e^-x=1-x+(x^2)/2-(x^3)/6.......

e^x+e^-x=2+x^2+(x^4)/12.....
since i^2=-1 then

e^ix+e^-ix=2-x^2+(x^4)/12-(x^6)/360....

(e^ix+e^-ix)/2=1-(1/2)x^2+(x^4)/24-(x^6)/720....=cos(x)
(e^ix-e^-ix)/2i=sin(x)

Well hang on, so imaginary numbers are used in trigonometry? You mean that every time i throw a frisbee, imaginary numbers are somehow related?
Worse still if we look at quantum physics. Imaginary numbers pop up every 3 seconds there. Figures.

Its this sort of thing that has caused a world within a world in mathematics. Mathematicians themselves have become divided into 2 groups: the pure and the applied.

As the name implies the pure are to do with aspects of mathematics itself(eg: proving conjectures) whilst the applied are to do with using the mathematics in real world prolems(eg: fluid mechanics)

Pure
Analysis
Algebra(hard!!)
.....

Applied

Mechanics
Statistics
.....

Now as my teacher puts it, the pure mathematicians think that the applied are cretins who don't know how to use maths. In retrospect, the applied ones think that the pure are insane, spending their days living in an office like social outcasts.



There are several reasons. A big one pertains to a paradigm shift with mathematicians back early 20th century. You see just like scientists a century earlier there was a growing belief that perhaps everything about mathematics might one day be understood. People like Bertrand Russell were thinking that perhaps they could use set theory to organize mathematics into an understandable bundle. Whenever they found self references, they would avoid them by adding layer after layer of limitations making the foundations of mathematics look more like the sediments in the grand canyon.

Alfred Whitehead for example worked with Russell to produce a 360 or so page book proving that 1+1=2(dont believe me? University of Michigan Historical Math Collection)

Even someone like David Hilbert, one of the most influential mathematicians of the time was into the idea of organizing everything in mathematics and rounding the edges off. It seemed like this indomitable mountain was about to be conquered. That is until Godel came along

Now Kurt Godel changed everything with his incompleteness theorems. The most relevant part of them being that even in a self-consistent system, the axioms cannot be proven. That it will be impossible to prove certain conjectures no matter how much time and effort we put into them.

To put this into perspective think of Fermats Last theorem. A problem thought up by an amateur took generations of mathematicians before it was actually proven. Neither Euler, Dirichlet nor Galois could crack it(though they made progress) and it wasn't until 357 years later that finally Andrew Wiles bought such a giant down to its knees.

Joaquin, first of all thank you very much for taking your time to come up with this explanation, this elaborate answer requires nothing less so it'll take some time for me to answer, much study and analysis is required right now

[coosjoaquin]

Originally Posted by Travelling fella

Joaquin, first of all thank you very much for taking your time to come up with this explanation, this elaborate answer requires nothing less so it'll take some time for me to answer, much study and analysis is required right now

Hehe, well im glad you liked it. Its really easy to underestimate just how much fun writing about what you enjoy can be.

[Travelling fella]

Originally Posted by coosjoaquin

Hehe, well im glad you liked it. Its really easy to underestimate just how much fun writing about what you enjoy can be.

I understand you perfectly, and well I can only say Kudos to you!!!

I'm speechless honestly after reading and rereading your detailed explanation on math there is only questions to you.

What is your goal with math? where do you want to go (or be taken) by them?

Do you think Math has a source? an starting point? where did they come from?

What do you find the most fascinating about them?