Everything has to have a beginning? (hell, atheist, bible, faith)

[travelmate38]

As humans and as all we know as humans, everything has to have a start or have a beginning and everything must eventually have an end. Even scientists theorize the universe will eventually implode on it's own self and shrink and disappear. As a human, I'm having a hard time arriving at the point of conclusion where as the universe did not exist at some point in time? Where the hell did it come from then? If this universe we know is billions and billions of light years large and expanding, what started this process. Something, or someone must have started it somehow. There had to be some sort of material element to get things started. Where the helll did all matter come from, before there was none?

Lets say you reached the very outer limits of the expanding universe where the expansion was taking place, what happens then? You run into a brick wall? Fade to nothing? Get where I'm going here? I believe the universe is comprised of a common denominator and we are all part of it. "God particles?" What is it, where did it all start and how did it all start?

[coosjoaquin]

Originally Posted by travelmate38

As humans and as all we know as humans, everything has to have a start or have a beginning and everything must eventually have an end. Even scientists theorize the universe will eventually implode on it's own self and shrink and disappear.

Not really, a circle or sphere does not have a begining nor and end. If you were driving on it you would just reach the place where you started at some point.

The scientific theories about the fate of the universe depend on whats called the critical density of the universe. If we divide the total mass of the universe by the volume, we get the density of the universe.

Now depending on what value we get, there are 3 possibilities:

Open universe-this is where the density of the universe is smaller than the critical density, there is not enough gravity to counter the expansion and so the universe just keeps on expanding. At one point all the energy in the universe is spaced so far apart that it becomes a dead cold place(even more so than now)

Flat universe- This is where the density is the same as the crit density. There is still expansion but not as fast and at one point it levels off

Closed universe-In here gravity wins out and the universe at one point stops expanding and starts shrinking. Its possible that after the big crunch we get another big bang making the universe expand and contract in a never ending cycle

Now for a while it seemed that the universe is open. Einstein got rid of his cosmological constant in his equations when he found that the universe was expanding. Now we know that this was Einsteins biggest mistake because he didn´t know about dark matter -^- so it might turn out that the universe is closed after all

Originally Posted by travelmate38

As a human, I'm having a hard time arriving at the point of conclusion where as the universe did not exist at some point in time? Where the hell did it come from then? If this universe we know is billions and billions of light years large and expanding, what started this process. Something, or someone must have started it somehow. There had to be some sort of material element to get things started. Where the helll did all matter come from, before there was none?

Its not that hard to understand. Space and time are the same thing so without space there was no time. With this in mind questions like "before" the big bang make no sense because we lack a time dimension. Of course any idea as to why the universe is here in the first place is beyond the reach of science so philosophers and theologians can have a field day on that one

Originally Posted by travelmate38

Lets say you reached the very outer limits of the expanding universe where the expansion was taking place, what happens then? You run into a brick wall? Fade to nothing? Get where I'm going here? I believe the universe is comprised of a common denominator and we are all part of it.

Ive answered this before. Basically if you travel all the way to the edge of the universe, space would bend in such a way that you would find yourself on the other end. There is no wall, its just impossible to reach beyond the edge for the same reason we cannot reach mars from the earth simply by walking

sec lemme get the link:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...niverse-2.html

Originally Posted by travelmate38

"God particles?" What is it, where did it all start and how did it all start?

Its the Higgs boson which is a theoretical particle that scientists predict might exist but haven´t seen yet. Finding it would give us insight as to how massless particles can make mass in matter and tidy up the standard model a bit. The task of proving that it is real goes to the Hadron collider in CERN which is a monster of an apparatus.

The problem with the Higgs boson is that its big and unstable, so unstable in fact that it would only last for a billionth of a nanosecond before breaking down into other smaller subatomic particles.

A bit of physics now. The atom is composed the particles: electron, neutron and proton.

Now experiments not too long ago showed that the photon for example is composed of 3 smaller particles called quarks. The "quarks" are held together by what are called "gluons"

The useful thing about them comes from the problem that it is impossible to separate the quarks from each other. Why is this? well when we do work to try to push them away, that energy gets converted into particles which then fly off. Its strange right? A bit like smashing a pick axe into a spring just to find that the spring is intact and ham bagettes have suddently appeared out of nowhere

So what the scientists are doing is using this effect to force the Higgs boson to be made. They grab some protons and pass them throught a massive 17 mile long particle accelerator. There magnets will speed up the protons until they reach 99.9999991% the speed of light before smashing them together
and measuring what they find.

I hope that was at least slightly helpfull

[IbeDavid]

Originally Posted by travelmate38

As humans and as all we know as humans, everything has to have a start or have a beginning and everything must eventually have an end. Even scientists theorize the universe will eventually implode on it's own self and shrink and disappear. As a human, I'm having a hard time arriving at the point of conclusion where as the universe did not exist at some point in time? Where the hell did it come from then? If this universe we know is billions and billions of light years large and expanding, what started this process. Something, or someone must have started it somehow. There had to be some sort of material element to get things started. Where the helll did all matter come from, before there was none?

Lets say you reached the very outer limits of the expanding universe where the expansion was taking place, what happens then? You run into a brick wall? Fade to nothing? Get where I'm going here? I believe the universe is comprised of a common denominator and we are all part of it. "God particles?" What is it, where did it all start and how did it all start?

REPLY: You just described the law of Causality.. what science is all about : Discovering causes whether they be natural or by intelligent source(s) . As for the start of the Universe : Either this exquisite Universe complete with ALL of the razor edge precise Anthropics (physics constants) needed , simultanteously, so the Universe could exist/be sustained/earth be here/us be here .... all came from Nothing by Nothing, or, it came from Nothing by Someone over and above it (someone who is therefore, INFinite). Because the Universe can be shown, scientifically, to be of great fine tuning and therefore, designed/engineered...which sounds more rational to you : NOTHING caused it to exist or SOMEONE caused it to exist that had a Will.?

Even the great Skeptic , David Huume , said :" I never asserted such an absurd thing, that something could arise without a Cause' .

There IS a theistic personal Creator for this finite personal Universe , and hes shown his incredible power and love toward us . The Ball is now in our Court to return his love via a personal real relationship with him , for, there can be no greater purpose to our lives other than that . Hes made himself known so if Man rejects him, they are without excuse . Man rejects God due to pride, arrogance, and willful rebellion to moral laws which lends maximum freedom to living as he/she likes pretending there is no ultimate accountability.

Your question was a good one and, it carries with it profound implications. Regards. The best book on this issue which ive found is :"I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" thru www.impactapologetics.com . Even atheists say how compelling the book truly is (albiet , not enough for them to WANT to change).

[IbeDavid]

P.S. Currently, there are over 250 extremely narrowly defined Physics Constants which ALL must be present at the same time, and which work collaboratively . IF any ONE is missing, it upsets the Universe/Solar System/Earth...and we are not here. Blind chance accounted for this ??? Its a total IMpossibility that there isnt a Theistic personal/willful Creator. (but....do we WANT there to be ? -- that is the REAL cut- to- the- chase question...)

[coosjoaquin]

Originally Posted by IbeDavid

REPLY: You just described the law of Causality.. what science is all about : Discovering causes whether they be natural or by intelligent source(s) . As for the start of the Universe : Either this exquisite Universe complete with ALL of the razor edge precise Anthropics (physics constants) needed , simultanteously, so the Universe could exist/be sustained/earth be here/us be here .... all came from Nothing by Nothing, or, it came from Nothing by Someone over and above it (someone who is therefore, INFinite). Because the Universe can be shown, scientifically, to be of great fine tuning and therefore, designed/engineered...which sounds more rational to you : NOTHING caused it to exist or SOMEONE caused it to exist

1. hehe rich, care to tell me what the Anthropic principle tells us about this? Oh yah, that after the fact events the probability is 1(100%). Simply put if the constants weren´t as they are today then we wouldn´t be alive today wondering this

Gosh, what are the chances that my mom or my dad gave birth to me? one in 8 billion. Would i be saying this if they hadn´t given birth to me? I do believe you must get all riled up everytime you play poker

Originally Posted by IbeDavid

that had a Will.?

Wait a minute, where is the logic behind asserting this? A non sequitir i do believe this is. Its like finding a sand castle and saying that a one eyed man from scotland named borris must have done this.

Originally Posted by IbeDavid

Even the great Skeptic , David Huume , said :" I never asserted such an absurd thing, that something could arise without a Cause' .

Funny you should quote a guy who died in 1776. David Hume was not alive to see the rise of quantum physics which Einstein was so against. Why did Einstein hate it so much? Because it tells us the one truth that the universe is of a probabilistic nature as opposed to a deterministic one(such as for example particles randomly popping in and out of existence). Basically as Ian Stewart would put it: god plays dice

Originally Posted by IbeDavid

There IS a theistic personal Creator for this finite personal Universe

Wow you are subtly adding more stuff into your claims. Personal? What part of the "fine tuned" argument tells us that?

Are you now going to pull the good ol bait and switch and say that the cause is the bible god? I thought Christianity was against deceit

Originally Posted by IbeDavid

and hes shown his incredible power and love toward us . The Ball is now in our Court to return his love via a personal real relationship with him , for, there can be no greater purpose to our lives other than that . Hes made himself known so if Man rejects him, they are without excuse . Man rejects God due to pride, arrogance, and willful rebellion to moral laws which lends maximum freedom to living as he/she likes pretending there is no ultimate accountability.

Nah, god plays dice and cares not for the actions of humans. She would cringe at you suggesting that the men who wrote the bible had anything to do with her but we are such a miniscule speck in such as huge universe that it really doesnt bother her.

Originally Posted by IbeDavid

Your question was a good one and, it carries with it profound implications. Regards. The best book on this issue which ive found is :"I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" thru www.impactapologetics.com . Even atheists say how compelling the book truly is (albiet , not enough for them to WANT to change).

Conversely i have too much integrity to lie in the manner than so many theists do.

[KCfromNC]

Originally Posted by IbeDavid

P.S. Currently, there are over 250 extremely narrowly defined Physics Constants which ALL must be present at the same time, and which work collaboratively . IF any ONE is missing, it upsets the Universe/Solar System/Earth...and we are not here. Blind chance accounted for this ??? Its a total IMpossibility that there isnt a Theistic personal/willful Creator. (but....do we WANT there to be ? -- that is the REAL cut- to- the- chase question...)

What is the range of each of these constants? How are the values in these ranges distributed? And how far can each of them vary before the universe becomes impossible? Without knowing these facts, it's impossible to estimate how likely or unlikely the universe is, so I assume you've got this kind of information handy.

Thanks in advance for showing your work when answering.

[nay624]

Originally Posted by coosjoaquin

Not really, a circle or sphere does not have a begining nor and end. If you were driving on it you would just reach the place where you started at some point.

where did the sphere come from.....

how do you draw a circle....the two ends connect to form a circle.

( sorry about deleating the rest...i aint no scientist...i got lost)

[travelmate38]

I'm sorry, but I for one do not buy this therory. Something has to come from something, or it has to be created. This nonesense that time and space did not exist before the big bang, therefore we just ignore it, is rediculous.

I can sort of entertain the idea of the big bang itself, but not the idea that it just happened spotaneously and from no material or conscious matter of any type. Sorry, that just does not work in my brain. Either matter has always existed, or their is a God or creating entity somewhere at some point.

[The Matrix]

Hi everyone! I haven't posted in a long while (pretty busy), and I haven't been paying attention to any of the goings-on here. But I just wanted to weigh in on this.

I agree with the sentiment of the original post. However, I would not saying "everything" has to have a beginning. I would think there has to be a stopping point somewhere. On the whole I agree with what IbeDavid and travelmate38 have said. But I'm not up on any of the contemporary physics.

One thing in particular caught my attention:

Originally Posted by coosjoaquin

Funny you should quote a guy who died in 1776. David Hume was not alive to see the rise of quantum physics which Einstein was so against. Why did Einstein hate it so much? Because it tells us the one truth that the universe is of a probabilistic nature as opposed to a deterministic one(such as for example particles randomly popping in and out of existence). Basically as Ian Stewart would put it: god plays dice

Hume's a brilliant thinker. Why are you so quick to dismiss him? I'm not sure I buy all his thoughts on causality, but that doesn't mean he was wrong to say something can't arise without a cause.

Do you think something come into existence without a cause? Would you say that something can come from nothing? That doesn't make sense to me. At all. The probability of something coming into existence without cause, or coming from nothing, is zero. Hey, but maybe you think it's 50/50 :-)

[coosjoaquin]

Originally Posted by The Matrix

Hume's a brilliant thinker. Why are you so quick to dismiss him? I'm not sure I buy all his thoughts on causality, but that doesn't mean he was wrong to say something can't arise without a cause.

The problem is that Hume's thinking does not reflect our current understanding of nature. He lived in a time back then when Newtonian physics was all that we knew. Newtonian physics of course is causal, if we knew all the starting condition then we could predict the behaviour of things in the future but this is only applicable to the macroscopic scale.

Originally Posted by The Matrix

Do you think something come into existence without a cause? Would you say that something can come from nothing?

Yes and no respectively. Remember "energy can neither be made nor destroyed"? Well there is a way around that in that you can get say a particle anti-particle pair spontaneously forming so long as they immediatly annihilate each other.

Now tell me how much i have here:
3 3 2 2 1 1 -1 -1 -2 -2 -3 -3
The answer is 0 zip,nothing, nada. Nothing came from nothing because on average it is nothing. How about that

Originally Posted by The Matrix

That doesn't make sense to me. At all. The probability of something coming into existence without cause, or coming from nothing, is zero. Hey, but maybe you think it's 50/50 :-)

Where do you get the zero value from? As i said, quantum physics is not something we see in terms of cause and effect but rather in terms of probabilities. The very small is a different world from ours, "*****er than we can imagine" i believe its been described as

Consider looking at the electron of a hydrogen atom, whizzing around its 1S orbital shell. We have a 90% probability of finding it anywhere within the probability cloud but thats not always the case and we can find the rascal even on the inside of the nucleus of the atom.

And lets not start yet with the mathematics of chaos