Thoughts on apocalyptic ideas, the end times, the Great Awakening, etc (Jehovah's Witness, grace)

[yydanay515]

I started a thread a while back about Jesus' supposed return. I posited that it was expected 2,000 years ago, a notion and expectation CLEARLY supported by the New Testament writings. Of course, many in the Christian community cannot accept this idea for obvious reasons so they, like the ancient Jews awaiting the messiah, still await the second coming of Jesus and as a result have to keep re-interpreting the scriptures to suit their ideas.

Well recently I was looking at some information on how apocalyptic ideas over the centuries have given rise to wars, movements and organizations and even cults. One particular event caught my attention which I used to hear during my church days but never really investigated. During the 1820s and 1830s there was a religious revival that started in western New York state that became known as the Great Awakening. It ignited religious furor across America and appears to have been a carryover from religious revivals in England in the latter part of the previous century John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist Church.

There is something interesting in that movement that I never noticed. Those caught up in it actually believed they were living in the last days because the spiritual euphoria was seen as a prophetic fulfillment of Joel chapter 2:28-32 which says:

And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
“ And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.

What is interesting about the above passage is that in Acts 2, Peter, the spokesman for the early Disciples, believed the passage above applied to HIS time and that the outbreak of speaking in tongues at Pentecost was the fulfillment. He even adds, 'And it shall come to pass in the last days...' to highlight his conviction. Clearly the revivalists of the early and mid 1800s also felt THEY were the generation seeing the fulfillment of Joel 2 and I have been to a few revivals in relatively recent times where ministers and those listening to them also felt they were the generation fulfilling Joel's prophecy and there are probably still ministers and lay people listening to them who feel they are experiencing Joel's prophecy. Every generation of Christians feel part of "this generation" that "shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled."

Out of the Great Awakening sprung the roots of organizations like the Seventh Day Adventist Church and the Mormon Church. The Seventh Day Adventist Church actually sprung to life out of a false prediction fueled by end time euphoria of that day. A few years later in 1859, a British minister by the name of Charles Darby devised an ingenious bit of theology that has shaped modern day prophetic interpretations in many churches. Out of it came the teachings of the rapture, a belief that prepared Christians will be whisked from the earth by the power of Jesus in a "silent" appearance by him who will sit with him in heaven while a 7-year tribulation period devastates the earth. Due to his interpretations of prophetic scripture, he also was a strong supporter of a Jewish return to their ancient homeland (which would occur less than 100 years later) because in his estimation, this was necessary for the fulfillment of the rest of latter day prophecies.

Less than 50 years later, C.I Scofield published a reference bible bearing his name which helped to spread Darby's worldview around the world. One item that could be found on the inside cover is this chart that some of you might have seen before, a chart outlining a prophetic picture based on Darby's interpretations of biblical prophecy. It helped to further entrench the ideas and became prominent in the fledgling Pentecostal and Charismatic movements of the late 1800s and early 1900s and then over into what has become known as Christian Fundamentalism or Evangelical Christianity. One other well known person who was influenced by Darby's theories was Dwight Moody, founder of the world renowned Moody Institute in Chicago which also has an influential radio station on Christian radio listened by countless Christians.

The Seventh Day Adventist Church as well as the Jehovah's Witness organization and the World Wide Church of God under the now deceased Herbert W. Armstrong all also have their traces to the Great Awakening either directly or indirectly. Of course there was also the Azusa Street Revival which began in 1905 in Los Angeles which gave strong legs to the Pentecostal movement. In that revival also, they felt they were fulfilling Joel chapter 2.

Many Christians today, even here on this site, follow the interpretations of men like Darby, Scofield and Moody, probably without even knowing it and maybe even thinking their ideas of "end times" prophecies have come down from the early Disciples. Clearly this is not the case. As far as I can tell, concepts such as the rapture and some of the modern interpretations of the Book of Revelation, for example, were unheard of prior to the mid 1800s. In fact, reformers like Martin Luther seemed to have held a very dim view of that book.

Finally, one common theme amongst some revivalists was that the Roman Papacy was the Book of Revelation's "***** of Babylon" or the "beast" itself. The Seventh Day Adventists took that one and ran with it creating an elaborate re-write of prophetic history to included it in their prophetic teachings.

[Ilene Wright]

The following seems to be a widespread belief among Christian theologians and some evangelicals. I happen to think it is a correct assessment of the breakdown of time.....in God's time and ours.

I was not aware of this until another poster sent me a DM with one evangelical explaining the theory, and just today I heard my favorite theologians talking about it also. It bears repeating and discussion. Actually, I think I will start a thread in the Christianity sub-forum about it, rather than go into it here, because I feel it's that important to end time prophecy.

[yydanay515]

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

The following seems to be a widespread belief among Christian theologians and some evangelicals. I happen to think it is a correct assessment of the breakdown of time.....in God's time and ours.

I was not aware of this until another poster sent me a DM with one evangelical explaining the theory, and just today I heard my favorite theologians talking about it also. It bears repeating and discussion. Actually, I think I will start a thread in the Christianity sub-forum about it, rather than go into it here, because I feel it's that important to end time prophecy.

I'm not surprised at your answer DOTL.

[Tesaje]

Originally Posted by yydanay515

As far as I can tell, concepts such as the rapture and some of the modern interpretations of the Book of Revelation, for example, were unheard of prior to the mid 1800s. In fact, reformers like Martin Luther seemed to have held a very dim view of that book.

Nice rundown on the history. The beginnings of the current evangelical thing were starting the early 19th century in Britain and came to the US a little later.

However, 19th century doomsday evangelism is not the first time. There were heretical movements that spread rapidly at the turn of that millennium convinced lots of people the end was nigh. The Church ended up doing mass murders to quell that uprising against the power of the church. But the Waldensians heresy circa ~1200 AD was quite a thing and Albigensian, Cathars became even more troublesome.

The fervor created several serious social problems
- a lot of people sold everything they had and wandered around homeless and begging based on the Jesus lauding the poor. This resulted in not having enough workforce to work the fields - somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
- Part of the heresy was rebelling against the Church's edict that the only way to god's grace is thru the interdiction of a priest and preaching that people could get to god directly themselves (sound familiar, all you protestants?) This, the Church would not tolerate at all as that threatened the power of the Church directly.

There was lots of other theological differences, including a group that sounded just like the Shakers 100's of years before them - eschewing all sexual relations. A study of medieval heresies reveals most of the 19th century evangelical ideas were not original and a focus on the end times not unusual.

I have read many a history connecting the rise and popularity of evangelism to times of socioeconomic upheaval. The rise of the Industrial Revolution being tied to the origins of the current evangelism.

[yydanay515]

Originally Posted by Tesaje

Nice rundown on the history. The beginnings of the current evangelical thing were starting the early 19th century in Britain and came to the US a little later.

However, 19th century doomsday evangelism is not the first time. There were heretical movements that spread rapidly at the turn of that millennium convinced lots of people the end was nigh. The Church ended up doing mass murders to quell that uprising against the power of the church. But the Waldensians heresy circa ~1200 AD was quite a thing and Albigensian, Cathars became even more troublesome.

The fervor created several serious social problems
- a lot of people sold everything they had and wandered around homeless and begging based on the Jesus lauding the poor. This resulted in not having enough workforce to work the fields - somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
- Part of the heresy was rebelling against the Church's edict that the only way to god's grace is thru the interdiction of a priest and preaching that people could get to god directly themselves (sound familiar, all you protestants?) This, the Church would not tolerate at all as that threatened the power of the Church directly.

There was lots of other theological differences, including a group that sounded just like the Shakers 100's of years before them - eschewing all sexual relations. A study of medieval heresies reveals most of the 19th century evangelical ideas were not original and a focus on the end times not unusual.

I have read many a history connecting the rise and popularity of evangelism to times of socioeconomic upheaval. The rise of the Industrial Revolution being tied to the origins of the current evangelism.

Oh yes Tasaje, I'm aware the sky has been falling since even before Jesus, but the rapture thingy and some of these wild claims about the Book of Revelation is another story.

[Simple Living]

I'm a llttle confused as to what you're asking, yydanay515. You bring up a Christian topic and then seem to ridicule the responses of the people who were kind enough to respond. What is it that you're looking for, exactly?

[yydanay515]

Originally Posted by Simple Living

I'm a llttle confused as to what you're asking, yydanay515. You bring up a Christian topic and then seem to ridicule the responses of the people who were kind enough to respond. What is it that you're looking for, exactly?

I was not asking anything. This was simply a FYI thread. Where did I ridicule someone? DOTL answered I expected (judging from his answers and responses to various threads) and I was simply agreeing with Tesaje that people have been crying doomsday since whenever.

If there was one subtle point I would have been trying to make in the entire thread, it is the fact that every generation of Christian since Jesus' day find evidence that THEY are the final generation before the return of Jesus.

[Simple Living]

Originally Posted by yydanay515

I was not asking anything. This was simply a FYI thread. Where did I ridicule someone? DOTL answered I expected (judging from his answers and responses to various threads) and I was simply agreeing with Tesaje that people have been crying doomsday since whenever.

If there was one subtle point I would have been trying to make in the entire thread, it is the fact that every generation of Christian since Jesus' day find evidence that THEY are the final generation before the return of Jesus.

I said you ridiculed the responses, not the people. That just seemed unkind when they were nice enough to respond.

You are correct, however. I think every generation has believed that they were in the final generation that would see Christ's return. But, as time has gone by, more wisdom and knowledge and revelation has come about concerning His return. Today, we're more able to correctly discern the signs of His coming. More Bible prophecy has been fulfilled in our generation than in most other generations. Although we can't know the day or the hour of His return, God does say that we can know the season. One of those signs is your post and the many, many like them. Those that say "every generation thought they'd be the ones to see Jesus' return," and "natural disasters and wars have been happening for hundreds, or thousands, of years. This is no different."

I know you'll disagree with what I've said and that's okay. The biblical facts still remain. It's an interesting thread, though.

[yydanay515]

Originally Posted by Simple Living

I said you ridiculed the responses, not the people. That just seemed unkind when they were nice enough to respond.

[Simple Living]

Originally Posted by yydanay515

Okay, I concede that "ridiculed" was a bit strong. I apologize.

It just gets to me sometimes how some unbelievers, whatever form they take (atheist, agnostic, etc.,) can't respond to a Christian's post with a little respect. For example, Christians get verbally attacked because of their beliefs about abortion or homosexuality, etc., They're called intolerant and bigoted, yet they aren't given the same courtesy in return. (And I'm not talking about supposed "Christians" who bash the people, but about the ones who are merely pointing out their religious viewpoint of the topic.) What happened to everyone's right to live out their beliefs? Doesn't that include Christians.

And I apologize again, for that small derail. As I said, you're right that every generation thought they would be the one's to see Christ's return. But, as knowledge and wisdom increases, we know better about what to look for because God has a history of giving revelation knowledge to people before He acts. Noah with the flood and Lot with Sodom and Gomorrah, for example. There's a scripture that says this, but I can't think of the reference to it right now... it's late.