A Question: Heaven and Hell. (prophets, punishment, believing, Savior)

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

Well if you base your belief only on the word hell as being a mis- quote you would still have to ignore the biblical descriptions of Hell.
Rev. 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. (THESE TWO WERE CAST ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE BURNING WITH BRIMSTONE).

I'm not surprised by much these days nor do I ignore the clear teachings of the Scriptures. Trying to say that Hell is a mis-quote is a stretch at best and it also requires that you ignore all the other Scriptures that clearly describe Hell and it's reality.

Okay, so you are ignoring my suggestion (it ain't the first someone has done that).

Your continued use of the "H" word is a dead give away. So suggestion #2: use the 'Lake of fire' term if you want to have any integrity in your speech. We already know that 'hell' is destroyed in the LOF.

Just know this: the only thing that was written in scripture over a 4000 year period that even has a shred of hope of denoting what is popularly taught as 'hell fire' are those 3 references in one mystical book. Fair enough? I admit the Lake of fire looks bad, but it is not the 'icing on the cake' so to speak as you suggest. It's the whole birthday party

I base my belief on:

#1. Knowing God and His nature personally.
His nature defines the meaning of the book - not the other way around.

#2. Sanity.
Punishing non-stop with no remedial purpose whatsoever is insane and sadistic. Thus saith my God given conscience. (Yes, God's ways are HIGHER than mine - non infinitely more barbaric)

#3. Genesis 3.
All the 'wages' are described in detail. Read it. No fire threats in sight.

#4. No apostle of Christ ever mentions Gahenna fire or the LOF in any evangelizing or teaching except James using the term metaphorically concerning the tongue.

Jesus was always speaking metaphorically concerning Judgements to the Jewish nation and religious leaders. That's why most keep their limbs intact. IE: You know...

blessings,
- Byron

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by GCSTroop

*Puts the rusty hacksaw down*

Thanks for the disclaimer!

I'm SOOO glad I added that. Can you see the papers: "Man sues after jabbing out eye with a fork after online challenge to support his beliefs"

ptsum, sorry to put you through all this. I guess the ways of my people are, well... a bit savage

blessings
- Byron

[bluepacific]

Jim and Margariet Sunders

I'm dedicating this post to my former nieghbors in the USA where we lived in a rural part of Southern California. They both died in the year 2000. Both were in their very late 80s and both lived back in the tragic days of World War Two. Jim was a U.S. verteran of the war and Margariet was a young person growing up in Nazi Germany and a former member of the Hitler jungen Gruppen (or Hitler Youth Group). Niether was religious in the sense that they ever went to church, but they had a slight sense of a belief in God. However, with the things they saw in those war years in both countries turned them off to churches.

These people were two of the most decent and community oriented people you'd ever want to meet. The were genuine caring human beings who valued and would and indeed did anything for their nieghbor without expecting anything in return. They were a huge loss to all of us up there in the mountains. Margariet was ill for about a year and then died. Jim was depressed and tried to commit suicide, and fortunately failed. However he did fall sick and died three months after Margariet died.

I had another nieghbor on the other side of me who was a devote Baptist preacher. He was a nice guy and we always got along. But he came over one day and we were discussing the loss of the Saunders family and said how sad it was that they were both experiencing eternal torture, torment and painful damnation right at that very moment. Well, if any of you know anything about me, I did'nt appreciate such an outrageous and ignoramic statement. I'm not going to explain everything I told him, but I can tell you this. If there really was such a place as a burning Hellfire & Torment, then every Reverend, Pastor, Priest, Monk, Nun, Mullah, Rabbi, Shaman, etc is in line ahead of everybody else who's ever lived.

This same Pastor/nieghbor believes in 'Once Saved, Always Saved'. So I put the question to him. I said, "So what you're telling me, is that you can go out and murder someone, steal, lie, commit adultery, molest a child, (trust me, I tried to think of every vulgar thing in the book) commit fraud, etc and you are still saved" ?????? His answer in one word, "Absolutely". My response, Unfreaking-believable!!!!!

So to be honest, I think the truth out there is not that hard to figure here and that about sums it up for me. You know, it's nobody's fault if you are ignorant about something. But it is your fault if you deliberately choose to stay there.

Next

[CelticLady1]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

Way back in 1973 I had an encounter with two demons by the names of Abjar and Altra. This event in my life lasted over a period of 6 months. The pastor of a church that I attended did not know how to deal with this situation. Yet other Christians I came to know did. These demons were told to return to Hell, they stated they did not want to go back there. The one demon refused to return and one of the woman that was present at a delieverence I had to attend saw him burning up on the floor. I did not see anything, yet I could hear in my mind what he was saying. My 6 month encounter has convinced me that every word in the Bible is true. And if the Bible describes a place called Hell, you can believe such a place exist. I know the demons believe in such a place, because the ones I encountered did not want to return there. I was 23 years old at the time, and in my life I have never experienced such fear. It is not just church doctrine that speaks of this place, it is the Bible. Now the Bible is not a Book to be taken lightly. Just because there are things in the Bible we don't personally like or fully understand, this is not a good reason to dismiss them. Since that time, I have not had any such encounters, and that was a long time ago. Yet I will never forget what happend that day, and it is my hope that all who read the Bible will believe what is written there within.

If hell, (in the sense that fundamentalists mean it), actually, physically exists, isn't it peculiar that only a select handful, such as yourself, have had such a terrifying experience? I'm not being sarcastic; I am quite serious. Because if hell existed, why would God not show this to everyone, to convince them of the seriousness of his supposed punishment for unbelievers? Hell would certainly be much more real to people, if they all went through an experience such as yours. This is not the best of analogies, but it reminds me of when I used to spank my children. I didn't threaten them with an imaginary paddle. I had a real one, and when they saw it coming toward their backside, they knew exactly what was coming. There was no guesswork, no doubts if it was real. And, they didn't get the spanking because they didn't "believe" in Mom; they got it for doing something they weren't supposed to do.

I am fully aware that "hell" is in the Bible. Which is why I stated, in my previous post, that I studied both the Bible, and church doctrine. It wouldn't have made much sense for me to study doctrine, without studying the Book from which it came, (studying church history, and the Bible's development over the years, was a bit of an eye opener, as well). And, my studies absolutely convinced me that the church has had it wrong, hundreds of years notwithstanding. Time does not prove anything, nor does a majority population. After all, fundamentalists would not hesitate to tell Native Americans, and other indigenous peoples, that their ancient beliefs were wrong, (which are older than Christianity). In fact, they've been telling them that, (in way or another), since Columbus took his wrong, (and very unfortunate), turn.

I'm sure that your intentions are good, Campbell, (wanting folks to avoid the horrors of hell, as you believe them to be). But as I said before, no matter how well-intentioned someone is, I will never again accept such a hideous belief, that our Creator would act in such a way that it would make Hitler's actions pale in comparison. Ptsum is quite right to avoid such a belief system.

[ptsum]

Originally Posted by firstborn888

By evil and suffering I'm not referring to Christian teachings, I'm just referring to the general state of humanity.

Some people act out selfishly in all cultures and systems - that is - they lie, steal, kill ect. People suffer from all sorts of spiritual, emotional and physical ailments. Mothers lose their children to un-timely deaths, people you love can turn against you - I'm talking about those sorts of things.

Where do you live? If you have found a place with no evil or suffering I want to move there!!!

blessings,
- Byron

firstborn,okay I see what you are asking. Among my people there are customs that has been handed down from generation to generation these have been the only laws to guide us,we had no written laws until our language was put into writing.Everyone might act differentfrom what was considered right did he choose to do so,but such acts would bring upon him the censure of the Nation if it was considered wrong..this fear of the Nation's censure acted as a mighty bond,binding all in one social honorable compact.This is our social laws.We also teach our young children how to conduct themselves among the other members of our culture and other cultures,we take a more of a hands on approach in bringing up our children,the whole community is involved, in that way they are taught respect.
As far as the spiritual aspects,when a child passes on to the next world in an untimely manner we grieve for a period of time for that child but we also realize that although we think it is an untimely death,we also know that the Creator has caused this child to passover for a reason beyond our understanding.During the grieving time all of the families come together to celebrate the life of the child and to us it would be unthinkable to say anything bad or negative,that's not being respectful.

Some of the things that you have mentioned,such as lying,stealing,and killing,is something that is very hard for our culture to comprehend,you see we have always been taught to be truthful and to not to take anything that does not belong to us and as far as taking a life,we do not do that just arbitrarily,there are situations were we are forced to do so
but then and only then will we do that.Examples are,if our life or members of our family are in danger,we will do so to protect them and ourselves,that is the only time we will ever take a human life.There is no honor in killing someone just for the sake of killing.

As to where I live,look in the upper right hand side of my posts,you are welcome to visit anytime.osay

[zonababe]

Heaven and Hell are fairy tales for adults. Just another way to keep people in line. Behave or else. We all know right for wrong, no need to have this threat of hell or the reward of heaven hanging over our heads.

[Travelling fella]

Originally Posted by firstborn888

Okay, so you are ignoring my suggestion (it ain't the first someone has done that).

Your continued use of the "H" word is a dead give away. So suggestion #2: use the 'Lake of fire' term if you want to have any integrity in your speech. We already know that 'hell' is destroyed in the LOF.

Jesus was always speaking metaphorically concerning Judgements to the Jewish nation and religious leaders. That's why most keep their limbs intact. IE: You know...

blessings,
- Byron

Great post Byron, you are a wise man! I also believe that God is all love and forgiveness, and that we being his/her children are part of him so it would be impossible for God to condemn a part of him to endless suffering like if our souls were some kind of low entity and not the image of the father.

My intuition tells me that the Lake of Fire is the all consuming fire of the desire of God that is aroused by devotion, that's why hell was destroyed here, as well as the mark of the beast and those false prophets teachings.

Love and Light!

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by CelticLady1

I'm sure that your intentions are good, Campbell, (wanting folks to avoid the horrors of hell, as you believe them to be).

I see those good intentions too Campbell. None of my posts were meant to belittle you in anyway even though they were strongly worded. I have had experiences with the 'dark side' as well am trying to show that the darkness is the source of all the fear and deception concerning this.

Blessings,
- Byron

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by CelticLady1

If hell, (in the sense that fundamentalists mean it), actually, physically exists, isn't it peculiar that only a select handful, such as yourself, have had such a terrifying experience? I'm not being sarcastic; I am quite serious. Because if hell existed, why would God not show this to everyone, to convince them of the seriousness of his supposed punishment for unbelievers? Hell would certainly be much more real to people, if they all went through an experience such as yours. This is not the best of analogies, but it reminds me of when I used to spank my children. I didn't threaten them with an imaginary paddle. I had a real one, and when they saw it coming toward their backside, they knew exactly what was coming. There was no guesswork, no doubts if it was real. And, they didn't get the spanking because they didn't "believe" in Mom; they got it for doing something they weren't supposed to do.

I am fully aware that "hell" is in the Bible. Which is why I stated, in my previous post, that I studied both the Bible, and church doctrine. It wouldn't have made much sense for me to study doctrine, without studying the Book from which it came, (studying church history, and the Bible's development over the years, was a bit of an eye opener, as well). And, my studies absolutely convinced me that the church has had it wrong, hundreds of years notwithstanding. Time does not prove anything, nor does a majority population. After all, fundamentalists would not hesitate to tell Native Americans, and other indigenous peoples, that their ancient beliefs were wrong, (which are older than Christianity). In fact, they've been telling them that, (in way or another), since Columbus took his wrong, (and very unfortunate), turn.

I'm sure that your intentions are good, Campbell, (wanting folks to avoid the horrors of hell, as you believe them to be). But as I said before, no matter how well-intentioned someone is, I will never again accept such a hideous belief, that our Creator would act in such a way that it would make Hitler's actions pale in comparison. Ptsum is quite right to avoid such a belief system.

The Bible is not a Book of lies. It is a Book that is telling you God's honest truth. If you refues to believe that, there is nothing more I can say. My experience was true. The demons were real and were experienced by others present around me. Hell is real, reguardless of what you want to believe. Jesus speaks of the rich man burning in hell. The rich man tells Jesus let me go back and warn my brothers of this place. Jesus tells him, they have the prophets. My experience has been repeated and in greater detail by many people. Yet even when many of us speak of this, few take it to heart, few will believe us. Hell was created for the Devil and his angles. Yet, when people refuse to accept Jesus Christ they join forces with the Devil, and will suffer for doing so. Most religions do not express God's truth. Most religions were created by lying spirits who oppose the Christian faith. And that is why most religions counterdict each other. Error and lies will not lead one to the truth. So that is why Christians tell all who will listen, that Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven. And Jesus Christ was the only man in history who fulfilled the 300 prophecies of the Old Testament. And the Bible is the only religious text that has prophecies that are truthful and can be verified. And it is obvious why the Bible is the only Book that can do this. Because only God knows the future, and God is the orginal author of the Bible. You will not find prophecies of truth in any other religion outside of the Bible.

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by zonababe

Heaven and Hell are fairy tales for adults. Just another way to keep people in line. Behave or else. We all know right for wrong, no need to have this threat of hell or the reward of heaven hanging over our heads.

Not that long ago a man who was a devout atheist believed as you do. His name was Howard Storm and was a Professor of Art at Nothern Kentucky University. You would of been in good company, and I'm sure he would of taken your side against me and my belief in Hell. However, that all changed after he died on June 1, 1985. His story can be found in the link below. He was brought back from the dead, and now is a devout Christian minister.

Howard Storm - near-death experiences