islamic

[Spindle]

but i believe that God sent prophets with miracles which proof that they are prophets from God

so if i trust the miracles , i believe God exist , isn't that logical sense for me to believe that God exist ?

I have just highlighted the flaws in your argument. You believe these things and that is fine. This doesn't, however, make them true.

i'm allready arguing with you by the words of (God) , i'm completely convinced that quran God's word , and no one can proof for me that it's human's word

the main problem I have with this is that you say "no one can proof (sic) for me that it's human's word." This underlines that you are not open to rational discussion and is, in my opinion, a large problem with organised religion.

[mahmoud mrt]

Originally Posted by JohnJLethal

I'm not pointing out talking donkeys, rather "substitutes" in the form of irrational miracles, or poor science.

You can start with this:

Does the Koran teach a flat earth?

Originally Posted by elwill

so do you want my respond for all of them , or you want somthings specifically ?
anyway i will start with the one " like a carpet"
i'm expecting from you to be open minded

first of all , you should to know that The word "Ard" in Arabic means floor or land or ground and means earth either so it depend on the context

"He hath spread the earth as a bed, and hath traced out paths for you therein, and hath sent down rain from Heaven, and by it we bring forth the kinds of various herbs..." (Sura 20:53).

by the way the above translation is corrupted a little for a reason
the correct one is

"He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out ..........".

do you noticed the variations they did in the context !!!!
He hath spread the earth as a bed not like He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet

i used to notice these corruptions from anti_islamic sites

the translation of "Ard" here can be understood as a floor or land
another thing , the word "mahdan" this word means flat (made it easy for people to walk )


And also it wouldn't make sense if Allah said 2 different things..
"He made the earth egg-shaped." (Quran 79:30)


so the first verse is referring to ground, prairies, flat desert, etc
and the second verse refers to earth as a planet

There are clear verses in the holy Qur'an that have no other meaning than the Earth is round.

Chapter 39

5. He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap (yokawer , warped around a ball) the Day, and the Day overlap (yokawer, warped around a ball) the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?

Chapter 36

40. It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law). (fe falken yasbahoon)

Chapter 21

33. It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course. (fe falken yasbahoon)

Chapter 37

5. Lord of the heavens and of the earth and all between them, and Lord of every point at the rising of the sun!

Chapter 70

40. Now I do call to witness the Lord of all points in the East and the West that We can certainly-

41. Substitute for them better (men) than they; And We are not to be defeated (in Our Plan).

Chapter 27

88. Thou seest the mountains and thinkest them firmly fixed: but they shall pass away as the clouds pass away: (such is) the artistry of Allah, who disposes of all things in perfect order: for he is well acquainted with all that ye do.

(Here it clearly says the mountains move similar to the clouds move, it has no other meaning the Earth is rotating, cause clouds move by wind (a bigger object moves them) and the mountains move similar cause the earth (a bigger object) is rotating.)


Some more info and analysis is here:
Refuting lies about Islam: Allegation that the Quran says the earth is flat

2. Carpet can also be spread on other than an absolute flat surface
Not a single verse of the Quran says that the earth is flat. The Quran only compares the earth’s crust with a carpet. Some people seem to think that carpet can only be put on an absolute flat surface. It is possible to spread a carpet on a large sphere such as the earth. It can easily be demonstrated by taking a huge model of the earth’s globe covering it with a carpet.

Carpet is generally put on a surface, which is not very comfortable to walk on. The Quran describes the earth crust as a carpet, without which human beings would not be able to survive because of the hot, fluid and hostile environment beneath it. The Quran is thus not only logical, it is mentioning a scientific fact that was discovered by geologists centuries later.

Peace

[mahmoud mrt]

Originally Posted by Spindle

I have just highlighted the flaws in your argument. You believe these things and that is fine. This doesn't, however, make them true.

the main problem I have with this is that you say "no one can proof (sic) for me that it's human's word." This underlines that you are not open to rational discussion and is, in my opinion, a large problem with organised religion.

We are always open to rational discussion.

The discussion is simple, we see the complexity and very accurate laws in the universe are pointing at their creator, God.

Just as you are in the desert, and suddenly you find a beautiful home with air condition, food and a robot to serve you, you immediately think, who made this.

We feel God in our souls, we do not need evidence, God is felt in every pure human heart, and the person chooses to hide this fact, you can argue with this, it's your right, and it's our right also to argue with you, that's what debate is all about.

You can argue saying that it's evolution, and so we argue, who made this evolution, who made the first cell, who made the rules so that this evolution produces very accurate intelligently made universe.

And who made the sun and planets and made them very accurately placed and orbit.

It's a simple argument and if we agree to disagree, then be it with respect, not saying words like (sic, etc.) you loose respect, so you loose logic. (no offence)

Peace

[tgnostic]

No one is a Sissy; no one is a Bully. But our ego's are committed to somewhat either being at a successful Belonging to our culture (the belief is for something we can hide the truth uncannily in ourselves), or I being my own certainty of belief (the belief I want to convince thou about for the justice of mankind in the subject).

But we use those terms: bullies are impersonally imposing their beliefs for my personal behaviour. sissies are very personal as long as they are themselves.

[Samir_Abdul]

Originally Posted by JohnJLethal

But what about the writings of violence in the Koran? How do you account for that?

what about the accounts of violence in the bible..especially the old testament....

christians always use this to discourage people from learning about islam....no sain human being has ever read the koran and got nothing but violence out of it...and i'm sure you havent either, that sound like some pat robertson on 700 club B.S.....