Questions that cannot be answered, but Christians still try. (hell, mythology, atheist)

[walkingthecow]

Call me crazy, but I have no faith in anything. I don't believe in evolution, I don't believe in God, I don't believe in the Big Bang. I believe in questioning, and really have no interest in finding the answers. If I had the answers then the questions would no longer exist, and life would be rather dull. I simply cannot understand anyones ability to put all their faith and life into something that they do not know is fact. Why is it so important for people to KNOW where we came from and to KNOW where we go? You know, my girlfriend was an athiest until her grandmother died, and now God has become a crutch for her. She believes so that she doesn't have to face the fact that her grandmother is gone. This is fine, and I respect it, but I feel that many people believe in silly mythology simply out of fear, or need. If you feel the need to have an afterlife, and you cannot handle the idea of no longer existing, of course you will blindly accept anything that tells you that you can exist after this life.

I think my favorite argument against God is simple: Why would God create humankind knowing that they would sin, only to punish them for the sins? Is he a bored sadist? After all, it was he/she/it who created us, and he/she/it who punished us for not obeying him, and yet he/she/it is omniscient and knew that this would happen. Another thing that always got me: how is it that humans seem to know so much about God? Really, I find it interesting that people will argue things like they know God. For example, ask someone if God can create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it and you get the silly argument that he cannot, because he is omnipotent and doing so would go against his own omnipotence. How the hell would anyone know the answer to that?

Or, ask a Christian, if God is omniscient, then HOW is it possible that we have free will? If we have free will, then God does not know our decisions, and therefore he cannot possibly know the outcome of our lives because they are all based on our decisions, right (simple logic). However, Christians always tell me that we have free will, but God knows our choices, and therefore we still make the choices and yet God knows them. First off, how would you know that? How does anyone know that their invisible man knows our choices, and yet we get to make them? Second, how does that argument even begin to work? It's like rewording it so that it looks like it answers the question; and, while it does sound good, it still does not answer the question. The question still stands. If God knows what choices we make, then we cannot go against those choices (say we wanted to, or we had a sudden change of heart) because doing so would destroy the idea that God is omniscient.

And finally, how can you possibly believe in a God that creates a world, loves everything within the world, has complete power over the world, and yet still allows children to die from diseases, wars to occur, and all the other horrible things that happen. You can attribute it to free will, but if you have an all-powerful being that has the ability to end it and make things peaceful, then s/he/it's a really sick being if they allow it to go on. Serious, if you had two dogs and those dogs were fighting eachother and literally trying to kill eachother, would you not do what you could to stop it? If you did not, you'd be a sick individual. And I do believe that if there was a God, I would not bow before him anyway, because he/she/it has abandoned us, or is one completely sick individual.

Christians have no logic behind their arguments. Those who do not believe do not need faith, and they really do not need to argue anything. They do not believe, simple. Yet, Christians always say that it is athiests with the faith, and that athiest needs to prove that God does not exist. That's outright silly. I used an example in another thread, but I will not bring that in here. Still, Christians need to look into circular logic. You cannot use the Bible to prove any of your beliefs. You first have to prove that the Bible is the inspired word of God, but that means you first have to prove that God exists. So, first you prove God exists, and THEN you can say "well, the Bible says in John chapter...". If I am questioning the author of a book, saying that he is biased against my opinion and that his research is BS, you better show me the research, or show me proving that he is not biased and that his research is not BS, and it better not be a written statement by the guy himself since it just happens to be the guy I am questioning in the first place.

EDIT: I may use "he" for God in some places, but who cares really, since he does not exist, and assuming his gender doesn't really matter anyway.

NOTE: I posted this in another thread, but decided to give it its own thread since it doesn't really relate to the other thread I posted in.

[walkingthecow]

One last thing...

You see, I don't really take issue with what you people want to believe. If you want to believe in aliens, Santa Clause, flying racoons, or even God that is perfectly fine with me. However, once you try to make you Bible based morals law, that is when I have a problem with it. You must prove that the basis of these laws (The Bible) is true before anyone should accept them. That is on you. If you were to prove that The Bible is in fact true, then fine, no problem. However, people should not be forced to accept your faith and beliefs simply because the majority believes it.

I don't really mind the abortion argument because I do not think it is completely religious. I have a very difficult time with the idea of late-term abortions. I think there is a very simple moral code that all people have (or at least should have), and that is do unto others as you would like them to do unto you, and I don't think most people would like their life to be ended. It's really a simple rule, and the only rule that is really needed. We do not need ten commandments, just that simple rule. However, I do have a serious issue with your Bible based idea of Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Keep your religious beliefs to yourself until you can prove that there is a basis for them. Stop trying to shove your beliefs down everyones throat by legislating them. Once you try to legislate your beliefs, it is on your shoulders to PROVE them -- prove their basis.

END NOTE: It is never up to the person arguing against a statement to prove that the statement is true or false. It is up to the person who initially made the statement to prove the statement is true.

[SuSuSushi]

I'm interested in why you don't believe in the validity of evolution, since we have the best evidence for it being true. I'd really like to hear your reasonings why!

[LogicIsYourFriend]

Excellent post, walkingthecow. I like the heavy rock conundrum, it reminds me of a Simpsons episode where Homer asks Flanders, "Could God microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?"

[agnostic soldier]

Atheists are challenged to disprove x proofless claim because someone has to have the mind of a baby to be rewarded in their fantasy-afterland so they are incapable of using logic and reason.

[walkingthecow]

Originally Posted by SuSuSushi

I'm interested in why you don't believe in the validity of evolution, since we have the best evidence for it being true. I'd really like to hear your reasonings why!

I guess I should have reworded that. I do believe in certain aspects of evolution, such as Natural Selection, because these aspects have been proven -- they are fact, not theory. However, in the Creation vs. Evolution aspect, I do not firmly believe that we evolved from apes, because that is nothing more than theory -- it has not yet been proven. My point being, anyone who believes wholeheartedly in a theory is basing this belief on faith, something that I do not buy into.

Another example, you have Big Bang vs. God, and I buy into neither. Both of them are just theories, and both are pretty outlandish. If someone really discovers how we were created, and it is proven, then I will believe it. Athiesm does not involve faith; however, believing in big bang, evolving from apes, and creation all do...


Also, I find it very interesting that not a single "believer" has even attempted to answer any of these questions... Of course, they'd have to either A) resort to their Bible (something I don't care to hear), or B) resort to the idea of faith, and both are completely unacceptable forms of debate.

[sanspeur]

Walkingthecow...Do you understand how the word theory is used in science?

As used in science, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena.
Any scientific theory must be based on a careful and rational examination of the facts. A clear distinction needs to be made between facts (things which can be observed and/or measured) and theories (explanations which correlate and interpret the facts.


A fact is something that is supported by unmistakeable evidence. For example, the Grand Canyon cuts through layers of different kinds of rock, such as the Coconino sandstone, Hermit shale, and Redwall limestone. These rock layers often contain fossils that are found only in certain layers. Those are the facts.
It is a fact is that fossil skulls have been found that are intermediate in appearance between humans and modern apes. It is a fact that fossils have been found that are clearly intermediate in appearance between dinosaurs and birds.
Facts may be interpreted in different ways by different individuals, but that doesn't change the facts themselves.

[walkingthecow]

No, I completely understand theory vs. fact, and the scientific method. While many scientists may believe in the fact that we evolved from apes, I do not until there is definitive proof. I believe in natrual selection, and I do believe in microevolution, however I question the fact that we evolved from apes. If someone can show me some definitive evidence that shows we evolved from apes, then I will believe it; but, until then I choose not to believe any of the theories put forth regarding where we came from (e.g., creator, ape to man evolution, and so on). I don't see any real support for the theory that we evolved from apes. Still, I don't look down on the people who believe in it nearly as much as I do those who believe in God/creation.

[HotinAZ]

Call me crazy, but I have no faith in anything. I don't believe in evolution, I don't believe in God, I don't believe in the Big Bang. I believe in questioning, and really have no interest in finding the answers.

Ok, your crazy. ]

Why is it so important for people to KNOW where we came from and to KNOW where we go?

Why?

It gives us purpose, and hope.

If I had the answers then the questions would no longer exist, and life would be rather dull.

See, but ours isn't. We as Christians have purpose. To God, and His Glory. We serve, He leads. Though we have not the answers to the universe, we have glimpes into His Wonders and Wisdom. These are what science cannot reason away. Even if they could, we would just say, WOW! Another glimpse!

If you feel the need to have an afterlife, and you cannot handle the idea of no longer existing, of course you will blindly accept anything that tells you that you can exist after this life.

See, it wasn't like that for myself. I had doubts. I questioned everything about God. You know, the "WHY?" arguments. It wasn't until I had a very spiritual experience, that I knew. I knew this flesh dies, but the spirit lives on. So, I went on a journey, for Truth. Funny thing is, i am still on it.

How the hell would anyone know the answer to that?

They don't. That is "god in a box", fit nice and neatly into their own construct. God is so much more above that, it isn't even fathomable.

If we have free will, then God does not know our decisions, and therefore he cannot possibly know the outcome of our lives because they are all based on our decisions, right (simple logic).

Wrong. Because what you are saying is that God operates in our limitations, including time. Since God is outside of time, He can see the entire picture at once, not in linear, but in wholeness. Free will is also included in this, since He also knows the course of our decisions, His plan must include them as well. To give an example, rough at best:

You see a child playing in the street. You also see a car coming. Does God know the outcome of your actions, next? Of course. But I would almost guarantee that both outcomes, or multiple outcomes are seen. Now, what if God had plans for that child in the future? Then you could be moved to intervene in that situation. Kinda like people doing things they don't realize they are doing, but they did them. Of course this can be explained away with psychology, but do they really know?


I will respond more later,,eyes are tired.

[agnostic soldier]

Originally Posted by walkingthecow

No, I completely understand theory vs. fact, and the scientific method. While many scientists may believe in the fact that we evolved from apes, I do not until there is definitive proof. I believe in natrual selection, and I do believe in microevolution, however I question the fact that we evolved from apes. If someone can show me some definitive evidence that shows we evolved from apes, then I will believe it; but, until then I choose not to believe any of the theories put forth regarding where we came from (e.g., creator, ape to man evolution, and so on). I don't see any real support for the theory that we evolved from apes. Still, I don't look down on the people who believe in it nearly as much as I do those who believe in God/creation.

It's the Creationist nonsense that says evolution says that people came from apes when evolution really says that chimps and humans have a common ancestor.