Ask a Mormon (disciples, Holy Ghost, Isaac, baptize)

[LogicIsYourFriend]

Originally Posted by PaulMcNabb

Anything can made to sound ridiculous; almost anything can be made to sound reasonable.

I have no clue where you got the "rocks on his head" thing. If your teacher taught you that, HE had rocks IN his head.

I thought he put his face in a hat that had seer stones in it to translate the book of mormon?

And aren't those the same seer stones that he used to get people to pay him to find treasure with in his earlier days?

[kdbrich]

Alright, we've answered that question.


My next question:


Isn't it true that the mormon church taught for awhile that black people were cursed by God? Because of the curse, black people were not allowed to be priests of Melchizidek?

[jest721]

Originally Posted by kdbrich

Alright, we've answered that question.


My next question:


Isn't it true that the mormon church taught for awhile that black people were cursed by God? Because of the curse, black people were not allowed to be priests of Melchizidek?

I don't know the answer to this, but I'm sure books have been written about it.

I do have a question though, isn't there a biblical precedent for the exclusivity of the priesthood? Weren't only men in the Tribe of Levi allowed to be priests in the Bible? That seems a lot more restrictive than just sex, or race. That would have a excluded a lot of God's chosen Israelites from being His priests.

[kdbrich]

Originally Posted by jest721

I don't know the answer to this, but I'm sure books have been written about it.

I do have a question though, isn't there a biblical precedent for the exclusivity of the priesthood? Weren't only men in the Tribe of Levi allowed to be priests in the Bible? That seems a lot more restrictive than just sex, or race. That would have a excluded a lot of God's chosen Israelites from being His priests.

You are correct. The tribe of Levi were the temple "workers", while certain men from within Levi were priests. It was a rather exclusive thing.

The mormons have 2 levels of priesthood: The aaronic priesthood, available to any young man, and the Melchizedek priesthood--which is to certain men.

Neither one follows the requirements laid out in the OT for priests, as most mormons probably aren't even Hebrew.

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by kdbrich

So what you're saying is that mormons are not Christians then? Since you don't want to be associated with the "more than 10000 Christian churches"?

And no...the nice young men on bicycles that show up at our doors generally don't really go into the details on what the mormon church teaches on the deity of Christ, the Trinity, etc.

I do not know how many Christian denominations there are but I read in several different places that it exceeds 10,000 and may be as many as 20,000, though my sources were not authoritative. Maybe someone on this board has some reliable sources for that number and are willing to share it with us?

Apparently you made up the notion that I do not want to be "associated" with 10,000 churches, I don't think I mentioned any such thing. But it's true that I am content to be a member of just one.

LDS missionaries do teach our beliefs about the nature of God to sincere investigators. But of course they do not teach the trinity, it's up to churches who believe that doctrine to teach and explain it to their investigators.

But it seems apparent that you have personally adopted a certain definition of "Christian" and feel ok with proclaiming that Mormons do not fit your definition so they are not Christians even though Christ is at the very center of LDS belief and worship.

As I mentioned before, Latter-day Saints are Restoration Christians, not Nicene Christians. I think it likely that you are basing your exclusion of a group of fellow followers of Jesus Christ on the fact that the Saints do not accept the trinity doctrine. And we don't, we know God much better than to fall for that one. By your definition even Christ and his chosen Apostles would not be Christians because the trinity doctrine had not even been invented yet before their death!

I'm not a scholar so I can't argue biblical history with you, but here's what I found about your trinity doctrine with a very brief google:

"Tertullian, a Latin theologian who wrote in the early third century, is credited with using the words "Trinity," "person" and "substance" to explain that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are "one in essence – not one in Person."

About a century later, in 325, the First Council of Nicaea established the doctrine of the Trinity as orthodoxy and adopted the Nicene Creed that described Christ as "God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance (homoousios) with the Father."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

I wonder how many sincere and faithful grassroots Christians know that the trinity doctrine their church teaches was made by man and established as binding doctrine long after the death and resurrection of our Savior?

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by kdbrich

You are correct. The tribe of Levi were the temple "workers", while certain men from within Levi were priests. It was a rather exclusive thing.

The mormons have 2 levels of priesthood: The aaronic priesthood, available to any young man, and the Melchizedek priesthood--which is to certain men.

Neither one follows the requirements laid out in the OT for priests, as most mormons probably aren't even Hebrew.

This is the "Ask a Mormon" thread so it is my hope that people who are not active Mormons do not attempt to speak for or to misrepresent us.

The truth is that the Aaronic Priesthood is conferred upon worthy young men (those who are keeping the commandments as best they can) who are willing to take those responsibilities upon themselves. (Most are willing and worthy and most young LDS men are Aaronic Priesthood holders.)

Deacons are usually ages 12 and 13, Teachers 14 and 15, and Priests 16 to 18. Each priesthood office has certain responsibilities. Those were revealed during the restoration of the Lord's church.

Worthy men ages 19 and above usually have the Melchizedek Priesthood conferred upon them. Offices in the Melchizedek Priesthood include: Elder, Seventy, High Priest, Patriarch, Apostle. It is appropriate to address any Melchizedek Priesthood holder as "Elder" regardless of the office they hold, even apostles.

Worthy Latter-day Saints are entitled to receive a Patriarchal Blessing from an ordained Patriarch. Included in that personal revelation from God to them is their lineage. Most American Latter-day Saints in our time are descendents of, or have been adopted into, the tribe of Joseph through Ephraim or Manasseh.

There are some converts to the Church from the tribe of Judah, but the time for the Jews is not yet, it is still time for the Gospel to be preached to the "Gentile" nations. That could change in the near future the way the signs of the times are shaping up right now, but God always keeps the timing to Himself.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend

I thought he put his face in a hat that had seer stones in it to translate the book of mormon?

And aren't those the same seer stones that he used to get people to pay him to find treasure with in his earlier days?

That's what we were taught. That he placed stones on his head to see things. I'll have to google this one. I forget what the stones were called.

http://www.mormonfortress.com/seer2.html

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by kdbrich

Isn't it true that the mormon church taught for awhile that black people were cursed by God? Because of the curse, black people were not allowed to be priests of Melchizidek?

It often strikes me as somewhat strange that many of our critics seem so concerned that the priesthood conferred within the LDS Church is not, or for a period of time was not, universally available. The truth is that almost every male member age 12 and up in the LDS Church is a priesthood holder. I wonder how many men in the churches those critics are members of hold the priesthood??

There was a time when members with roots in Africa were not allowed to be priesthood holders because that is the way the Lord wanted it to be, for his own reasons. That changed about 1978 I think it was when the Lord lifted the restriction. But during those earlier times there were many faithful black members of the church. Even during the days when other churches in America were segregating their buildings and congregations, blacks associated equally and happily (with the exception of priesthood) with the Saints in integrated meetinghouses.

Times have not always been easy for African migrants, I'm very pleased that it is now much better.

[kdbrich]

Originally Posted by justamere10

It often strikes me as somewhat strange that many of our critics seem so concerned that the priesthood conferred within the LDS Church is not, or for a period of time was not, universally available. The truth is that almost every male member age 12 and up in the LDS Church is a priesthood holder. I wonder how many men in the churches those critics are members of hold the priesthood??

There was a time when members with roots in Africa were not allowed to be priesthood holders because that is the way the Lord wanted it to be, for his own reasons. That changed about 1978 I think it was when the Lord lifted the restriction. But during those earlier times there were many faithful black members of the church. Even during the days when other churches in America were segregating their buildings and congregations, blacks associated equally and happily (with the exception of priesthood) with the Saints in integrated meetinghouses.

Times have not always been easy for African migrants, I'm very pleased that it is now much better.

Actually in answer the first point about "why don't all churches make all men priests?". -- The Bible says all believers are a royal priesthood. You don't need a priest to intercede on your behalf--Jesus is our high priest.

But thanks for owning up to the racist history of the mormon church in the second one.

[ParkTwain]

Originally Posted by justamere10

There was a time when members with roots in Africa were not allowed to be priesthood holders because that is the way the Lord wanted it to be, for his own reasons. That changed about 1978 I think it was when the Lord lifted the restriction.

This is speaking in euphemisms ("the way the Lord wanted it to be), as if your church's leaders are in direct and special communication with God, as if your particular group has some special grasp of God's eternal truths, after following the teachings of fellow (Joseph Smith, Jr.) who couldn't control his own sexual urges (the teenager Fanny Alger, et al) and therefore reinstituted the idea of multiple wives and who had previously made a living by seeking objects in the ground using special stones. We are now living in the 21 century.

Do you ever explain your teachings in words meant for adults with brains?