Does the Bible indicate that there are no miracles or faithful? (grace, genesis)

[Greatest I am]

Does the Bible indicate that there are no miracles or faithful?


Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
[SIZE=2]
[/SIZE]Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
[SIZE=2]Neither of the perfect above speak of miracle working as a benefit of being as God.

[/SIZE]Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

[SIZE=2]Much of religion is based on the belief that God is a perfect miracle worker.
Matthew 5 indicates that man can be as perfect as God.
Genesis 3 indicates that to be as Gods we must eat of the tree of knowledge as Eve did but it does not say anything about gaining the ability to do miracles.

Matthew 17 indicates that any that have even a small amount of faith can do miracles.
Either miracles are available to man and God, or not.
Jesus indicates that they are but is it possible that those who say they have faith do not really because no one has yet shown even the small amount of faith that would trigger the miracle working ability.
I personally do not believe in miracles but at the same time I do not like the idea that those of faith are deceiving themselves or others as to the reality of their faith.

What do those of Faith, from the Pope on down to protestant faiths, think of Matthew 17.

Is there not one man alive with this small amount of faith?

Regards
DL
[/SIZE]

[mzjamiedawn]

Aren't you supposed to quote where you copy and paste from?

[jfraysse]

hmm... I don’t think Jesus even made these ludicrous statements, which are incidentally the heart of the “Name it and Claim it” Gospel Cult. These verses were written first in the Gospel of Mark, the earliest of the Canonical Gospels (Mark 11:23). Matthew and Luke are copied verbatim in many places from Mark.

Closely following the ridiculous tree cursing incident in Mark 11 (which I also doubt), Jesus allegedly says, “everything prayed for in faith believing you have it already will be granted”. How absurd and ruinous if actually practiced and it also violates the precepts outlined in the “Lord’s Prayer”. What happened to “Thy Will be done?”

I think these verses were added to keep the huddled masses playing mind games with “faith, prayer and purity” and under the control of the priesthood and off the Roman Government’s back. There is also a contextual issue. Note how nicely the story fits if you read from Mark 11:19 and directly move to Mark 11:27! The crap in the middle is just that - crap!

So, does the Bible indicate that there are no miracles or faithful? Heck, you can justify anything you like with the Bible from the hideously vile to the unbelievably good. The Bible is all over the place with the importance of miracles, faith and works too for that matter.

But, I do know this: the idea that “everything prayed for in faith believing you have it already will be granted” does NOT work in the real world and those who preach and teach it, are nothing but snake oil salesman and charlatans of the highest order! Unfortunately, their followers are usually folks who can least afford to be caught up in such chicanery.

Grace & Peace, John

[BudinAk]

Originally Posted by Greatest I am

Does the Bible indicate that there are no miracles or faithful?


Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
[SIZE=2]
[/SIZE]Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
[SIZE=2]Neither of the perfect above speak of miracle working as a benefit of being as God.

[/SIZE]Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

[SIZE=2]Much of religion is based on the belief that God is a perfect miracle worker.
Matthew 5 indicates that man can be as perfect as God.
Genesis 3 indicates that to be as Gods we must eat of the tree of knowledge as Eve did but it does not say anything about gaining the ability to do miracles.

Matthew 17 indicates that any that have even a small amount of faith can do miracles.
Either miracles are available to man and God, or not.
Jesus indicates that they are but is it possible that those who say they have faith do not really because no one has yet shown even the small amount of faith that would trigger the miracle working ability.
I personally do not believe in miracles but at the same time I do not like the idea that those of faith are deceiving themselves or others as to the reality of their faith.

What do those of Faith, from the Pope on down to protestant faiths, think of Matthew 17.

Is there not one man alive with this small amount of faith?

Regards
DL
[/SIZE]

Whether one believes in miracles, or not, does not change the facts: that there indeed ARE miracles. I say that not because a "friend of a friend of a friend's neighbors's wife's pastor's son's mother-in-law's friend's friend said so", and "therefore I believe", but because I have had a few literally happen to me. Not some obscure person I don't know and never heard of, but me.

I didn't ask for a miracle, I didn't know they were going to happen, but happen they did. At a time of critical need for me. (But exceedingly rare they certainly appear to be) Click on this link, then scroll down to post 6 (my experience):

http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...something.html

Bud

[Reverend1111]

There are miracles all around. It's those big ones that people want to look for and not the small ones. We also tend to believe that everyday happenings are not in the least miraculous when in fact, they are.
Just look into the eyes of everyone you meet. We are miracles in and of ourselves. We don't need showboat miracles to prove that they exist. We just need to be the miracle.

[jfraysse]

Bro Bud: I’m glad those miracles happened to you and if they helped you in your time of need or crisis that is truly awesome! I have experienced similar, if not less dramatic, things myself. I rejoice with you!

Sis Rev: Your way of looking at everyday life as a miracle is great - a wonderful attitude!

I’m a Bible Skeptic and the thread topic hit a nerve of mine. Sorry!

In His Love, John

[Greatest I am]

Originally Posted by jfraysse

hmm... I don’t think Jesus even made these ludicrous statements, which are incidentally the heart of the “Name it and Claim it” Gospel Cult. These verses were written first in the Gospel of Mark, the earliest of the Canonical Gospels (Mark 11:23). Matthew and Luke are copied verbatim in many places from Mark.

Closely following the ridiculous tree cursing incident in Mark 11 (which I also doubt), Jesus allegedly says, “everything prayed for in faith believing you have it already will be granted”. How absurd and ruinous if actually practiced and it also violates the precepts outlined in the “Lord’s Prayer”. What happened to “Thy Will be done?”

I think these verses were added to keep the huddled masses playing mind games with “faith, prayer and purity” and under the control of the priesthood and off the Roman Government’s back. There is also a contextual issue. Note how nicely the story fits if you read from Mark 11:19 and directly move to Mark 11:27! The crap in the middle is just that - crap!

So, does the Bible indicate that there are no miracles or faithful? Heck, you can justify anything you like with the Bible from the hideously vile to the unbelievably good. The Bible is all over the place with the importance of miracles, faith and works too for that matter.

But, I do know this: the idea that “everything prayed for in faith believing you have it already will be granted” does NOT work in the real world and those who preach and teach it, are nothing but snake oil salesman and charlatans of the highest order! Unfortunately, their followers are usually folks who can least afford to be caught up in such chicanery.

Grace & Peace, John

I generally agree.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

Originally Posted by BudinAk

Whether one believes in miracles, or not, does not change the facts: that there indeed ARE miracles. I say that not because a "friend of a friend of a friend's neighbors's wife's pastor's son's mother-in-law's friend's friend said so", and "therefore I believe", but because I have had a few literally happen to me. Not some obscure person I don't know and never heard of, but me.

I didn't ask for a miracle, I didn't know they were going to happen, but happen they did. At a time of critical need for me. (But exceedingly rare they certainly appear to be) Click on this link, then scroll down to post 6 (my experience):

http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...something.html

Bud

Not quite what I call miracles but if you want to think they were then enjoy.

It seems strange to me though that God would give you water while allowing thousands of children to starve daily.


//photosthatchangedtheworld.com/starving-child-vulture/

If God were to give me water I would refuse and send Him to the one shown above.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

Originally Posted by Reverend1111

There are miracles all around. It's those big ones that people want to look for and not the small ones. We also tend to believe that everyday happenings are not in the least miraculous when in fact, they are.
Just look into the eyes of everyone you meet. We are miracles in and of ourselves. We don't need showboat miracles to prove that they exist. We just need to be the miracle.

Hogwash.

Regards
DL

[Nikk]

Originally Posted by Greatest I am

Does the Bible indicate that there are no miracles or faithful?


Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
[SIZE=2]Neither of the perfect above speak of miracle working as a benefit of being as God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

[SIZE=2]Much of religion is based on the belief that God is a perfect miracle worker.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Matthew 5 indicates that man can be as perfect as God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Genesis 3 indicates that to be as Gods we must eat of the tree of knowledge as Eve did but it does not say anything about gaining the ability to do miracles.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Matthew 17 indicates that any that have even a small amount of faith can do miracles.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Either miracles are available to man and God, or not.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Jesus indicates that they are but is it possible that those who say they have faith do not really because no one has yet shown even the small amount of faith that would trigger the miracle working ability.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]I personally do not believe in miracles but at the same time I do not like the idea that those of faith are deceiving themselves or others as to the reality of their faith.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]What do those of Faith, from the Pope on down to protestant faiths, think of Matthew 17.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Is there not one man alive with this small amount of faith?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Regards[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]DL[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]

No, the bible indicates that there are faithful and there are miracles.

Have you not read where Jesus said John 14:"12": Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

So, the believer will not only do the miracles that Jesus did, but greater!