Intelligent Design? (genesis, evolution, Adam and Eve, Christ)

[nightflight]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

God gave His creation free will. Should God of created robots, and programmed them to mindlessly love Him?

You are correct. The Bible nowhere says that humans are robots. It says they are clay. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:21. In fact, clay is even less than a "robot". Clay just sits there until molded by someone. And as Paul said, God molds some clay for honour, and some for dishonour. No free will. No choice.

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by nightflight

This is faulty on several levels. First, you assert that people "choose" to go to hell. Well, according to your Bible, Romans chapter nine specifically, its God who "chooses" who is "saved". 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.Looks plain to me. In fact there are Christians known as Calvinists who make God's sovereignty the center of their theology.

Second, if your God knew from the beginning that most "would not love him", then why, if he is good and loving, would he create some, knowing they would spend forever screaming in agony? And what a mockery that would make of parental love! Can you see two parents looking on their infant with love, all the while God knows that that baby will someday wind up in the Lake of Fire. Oh praise Him!

Third, if there are some who "choose" to be saved, then their must be some quality in those who do that the others don't have, be it wisdom, intelligence or some other virtue. Then grace goes out the window, because you have people being saved because of some innate quality. But then I suspect that's part of the reason Christians assert the "choice" argument; its self-aggrandizement.

Romans 9 primarily deals with Israel, and is not about Salvation. And the only innate quality found in believers, is the free choice given to all to honor God. And in honoring God, believers receive the free gift of Salvation. Which comes from Gods grace. Becomeing a Christian has little to do with boasting, it is a realization that without the sacrifice of Christ we by our own merit cannot, and will not be good enought to enter the Kingdom of God. I would say true self-aggrandizement is praticed by those who believe they are good enought to enter God's kingdom, based on their own spiritual wealth and merit. Yet Romans 3:23 states. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by nightflight

You are correct. The Bible nowhere says that humans are robots. It says they are clay. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:21. In fact, clay is even less than a "robot". Clay just sits there until molded by someone. And as Paul said, God molds some clay for honour, and some for dishonour. No free will. No choice.

You must (FIRST) by your own free will submit to God before you can become clay. Most people on the planet are not allowing themselves to be molded into anything. (THEY), are those who love God and follow Him. (THEY), are not the people of this world. (THEY), are Gods people. And (THEY) have given up their will freely, to be followers of Jesus Christ.

And that is the difference between a Christian, and a non Christian.

[nightflight]

You must (FIRST) by your own free will submit to God before you can become clay

That's not what the Romans passage is saying! Its saying that all are clay, and some are to be molded for honour, and some for dishonour. In fact Paul anticipates objections to this decree, saying, Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? "For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

So no, there is no free will in Paul's soterology.

[nightflight]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

Romans 9 primarily deals with Israel, and is not about Salvation. And the only innate quality found in believers, is the free choice given to all to honor God. And in honoring God, believers receive the free gift of Salvation. Which comes from Gods grace. Becomeing a Christian has little to do with boasting, it is a realization that without the sacrifice of Christ we by our own merit cannot, and will not be good enought to enter the Kingdom of God. I would say true self-aggrandizement is praticed by those who believe they are good enought to enter God's kingdom, based on their own spiritual wealth and merit. Yet Romans 3:23 states. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

You say its not about salvation, but other Christians say differently. For example, this article: Is Individual Election to Salvation Taught in Romans Nine?

The author makes a strong case that the passage in Romans is speaking of individuals and their unconditional election by God to salvation. However, whether or not you think his case is strong, it goes to show that Christians disagree about election and whether people "choose" to go to hell. So for a Christian to assert that salvation is a matter of "free will" or "choice" is presumptuous, seeing as how there are other Christians who disagree. And as far as Christians boasting, they do it all the time when they tout their "free will". They are saying that they have a certain something, wisdom, intelligence, virtue that others don't have. See, Christians will assert that they have free will and "choose" salvation, but they never go deeper and ask why some believe and some don't. They just say free will and stop. But if you do go deeper and ask that uncomfortable question, you will be forced to conclude that those who "choose" salvation must have some quality that others don't have.

So clearly, we see that the Bible teaches that in regards to salvation, there is no "free will" or "choice", but rather that God chooses who is or who isn't "saved". And further, we see that Christians who tout their "free will" are in effect saying that they have an innate quality that the "unsaved" do not possess, hence the self-aggrandizement.

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by nightflight

That's not what the Romans passage is saying! Its saying that all are clay, and some are to be molded for honour, and some for dishonour. In fact Paul anticipates objections to this decree, saying, Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? "For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

So no, there is no free will in Paul's soterology.

Romans 9 has more to do with Gods dealings with (ISRAEL) as a nation and God's purpose for their nation. It has nothing to do with individuals and their salvation. Paul was showing God's sovereignty in placing people to fulfill a spacific historical purpose. Such as the Pharoah, ect.

Scripture clearly states that God would have all come to (REPENTANCE). If there was no free will, then according to the Scriptures, all would be saved. Because this is what God desires. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, (BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.)

Romans 9 shows us what God can do in placing men in positions to fulfill his purpose historically. Yet, it's obvious that even though God wants everyone to be part of His Kingdom, He cannot. And the reason for this is it requires all to (COME) to repentance, as so clearly stated in 2 Peter 3:9. And God has no power over that individual decision.

[Boxcar Overkill]

I don't get to choose what I believe - I believe what my mind tells me is most likely true based on the best evidence I have. There's no free will involved, it is an automatic response.

I can no more make myself believe that Jesus was a son of God than a Christain could make himself believe that a giant chocolate easter bunny handed out colored eggs every easter.

As a skeptic, it is impossible for me to accept pascal's wager. I don't believe, and what I want has nothing to do with it.

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by nightflight

You say its not about salvation, but other Christians say differently. For example, this article: Is Individual Election to Salvation Taught in Romans Nine?

The author makes a strong case that the passage in Romans is speaking of individuals and their unconditional election by God to salvation. However, whether or not you think his case is strong, it goes to show that Christians disagree about election and whether people "choose" to go to hell. So for a Christian to assert that salvation is a matter of "free will" or "choice" is presumptuous, seeing as how there are other Christians who disagree. And as far as Christians boasting, they do it all the time when they tout their "free will". They are saying that they have a certain something, wisdom, intelligence, virtue that others don't have. See, Christians will assert that they have free will and "choose" salvation, but they never go deeper and ask why some believe and some don't. They just say free will and stop. But if you do go deeper and ask that uncomfortable question, you will be forced to conclude that those who "choose" salvation must have some quality that others don't have.

So clearly, we see that the Bible teaches that in regards to salvation, there is no "free will" or "choice", but rather that God chooses who is or who isn't "saved". And further, we see that Christians who tout their "free will" are in effect saying that they have an innate quality that the "unsaved" do not possess, hence the self-aggrandizement.

There are some Christian sects that believe that God pre ordains, yet most do not. And that's because that belief pretty much contradicts the Scriptures. If free will did not exist, there would be no reason for Jesus to incourage us to preach the Gospel. After all, those saved would be saved if they heard the Gospel or not. Free will is not salvation. Free will only allows us to say yes to Jesus Christ, and ask Him to be our Lord and Saviour. That author can only make a strong case for being pre ordained. If he is willing to ignore all the other Scripture that debunks that belief. Which appears to be the case. The only quality Christian have that others do not, is their desire to follow God. End of story.

Only certain Christian sects do not believe in free will. The Bible tells us it is (Gods desire) that all would enter His Kingdom. So if that is the case, why does the Bible teach that most people are heading to Hell?

Do you believe God pre-ordained people to burn in Hell? Because that is not the God of the Bible. That is the God that is created, by a misinformed cult.

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill

I don't get to choose what I believe - I believe what my mind tells me is most likely true based on the best evidence I have. There's no free will involved, it is an automatic response.

I can no more make myself believe that Jesus was a son of God than a Christain could make himself believe that a giant chocolate easter bunny handed out colored eggs every easter.

As a skeptic, it is impossible for me to accept pascal's wager. I don't believe, and what I want has nothing to do with it.

Often free will allows you to filter out evidence. And sometimes it is the deeper desire of one's own heart that guides one in selecting that evidence in the first place.

[sanspeur]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

Often free will allows you to filter out evidence. And sometimes it is the deeper desire of one's own heart that guides one in selecting that evidence in the first place.

Actually Campbell, I think you have it backwards. Free will allows you to examine all evidence and accept that which you think is true, and reject what you think is false.

You on the other hand cannot do that. Your method is to accept whatever fits your dogma, and reject what does not. In this respect your lack of free will forces you to accept the impossible and reject the plausible.

In regards to the natural laws of the world around them, fundamentalists have no free will, and this fact stifles progress for them in a big way.