There are many anointed ones in the Hebrew bible and they are not speaking of Jesus (prophets, atheist)

[ivria66]

The Hebrew Moshiach (messiah), is simply one who has been anointed. It usually speaks of a person initiated into G-d's service by being anointed with oil. Christians believe that every time moshiach appears in the Hebrew bible it must be referring to Jesus (unless a specific person's name is mentioned with it). That could't be farther from the truth. Kings and priests were anointed therefore they were moshiachs.

[AREQUIPA]

Originally Posted by ivria66

The Hebrew Moshiach (messiah), is simply one who has been anointed. It usually speaks of a person initiated into G-d's service by being anointed with oil. Christians believe that every time moshiach appears in the Hebrew bible it must be referring to Jesus (unless a specific person's name is mentioned with it). That could't be farther from the truth. Kings and priests were anointed therefore they were moshiachs.

It would be useful to have a messiah (Moshiach) thread.So many Christians seem to think that 'Christ' is a surname. It is a title like emperor, or Mayor or colonel.

Thinking atheists generally know there were other messiahs. They generally think of them as kings, but also as liberators in some way. I gather that the herodians were never considered as messiahs. If anything, a 'real' jewish king (the Herods were Edomites) deposing the Herodswould probably have been considered a messiah.

It's known the Hasmoneans/Maccabeans were Messiahs and of course the leaders of the Jewish war were aiming at the title. It puts Jesus, if we was aiming at the messiah title, into a different light from the one that Bible tries to put.

[ivria66]

Basically, let's say for arguements sake that we could go back in time, we end up 3000 years ago in Israel. If you were to stop and ask anyone on the street where can I find a messiah, they would respond with , which one? It also was not a requirement to be Jewish to be anointed. Again, this goes back to the fact that Christians really don't know anything about Judaism, Jews or Hebrew, and yet they profess to be experts because they follow a Jew named Jesus. They have no basic understanding of the era, the language and the customs either.

[AREQUIPA]

Originally Posted by ivria66

... It also was not a requirement to be Jewish to be anointed. ...

Do I understand this correctly? Anyone can get anointed, of course, but to be a messiah, doesn't one have to be Jewish?

I recall that Josephus thought that Vespasian was the messiah, preferring him to the Judean zealot messiahs, and i read about a discussion a couple of 1st century rabbis had about wheher herod could be the messiah. so perhaps it's true that anyone can be the Messiah.

I suppose it then remains to ask, if anyone can be anointed and non -Jews can be a messiah, what does a messiah have to do or be in order to become a messiah?

[Nikk]

I am a Christian, and I agree that many people do not know that messiah (Moshiach) means anointed and that any one can be anointed. I think there are many Jewish customs and traditions that the average Christian is ignorant of. If I said the word "Mikveot" I would problably hear "what?" in reply. I think this would probably go for many Jews or general public as well. In general I think that many people are ignorant of many things. On the other hand I have heard amazing things from people which I thought were unlearned. So generalization is futile. To say that Christians don't know this or that is stereotyping and a useless arguement.

With that, for someone to be anointed, oil was simply poured on the head. This act by a priest or prophet was to show Gods aproval for that perticular person for office of King or Priest. So, there were many people who were anointed in the bible. The issue comes in between "an" anointed person and "the" anointed person. A king was "an" anointed person, but there was one to come who was "the" anointed person. This person would complete the requirements of "the anointed one". Jesus of Nazareth, completed these requirements and that is why he is Jesus the Christ or Jesus the Anointed. Many Jewish people have rejected this of Jesus, because they feel that the anointed was to remove the Roman rule. They believed this out of ignorance of the scriptures. I do not see a single word that says in all of the torah, in the Law and the Prophets, that says that the Anointed was going to remove the Roman opression. But this belief was so ingrained in the Jewish population that we became deceived and our fore fathers could not recognize the Messiah when he came. Many did follow Jesus, but many have rejected him and continue rejecting him to this day. However the good news is that the day of the gentile is coming to an end. This does not mean that gentiles will no longer will be saved. It means that the Jewish nation will open their eyes and see that Jesus is the messiah. They will see him as Lord and will proclaim him to the world.

[AREQUIPA]

Originally Posted by Nikk

I am a Christian, and I agree that many people do not know that messiah (Moshiach) means anointed and that any one can be anointed. I think there are many Jewish customs and traditions that the average Christian is ignorant of. If I said the word "Mikveot" I would problably hear "what?" in reply. I think this would probably go for many Jews or general public as well. In general I think that many people are ignorant of many things. On the other hand I have heard amazing things from people which I thought were unlearned. So generalization is futile. To say that Christians don't know this or that is stereotyping and a useless arguement.

With that, for someone to be anointed, oil was simply poured on the head. This act by a priest or prophet was to show Gods aproval for that perticular person for office of King or Priest. So, there were many people who were anointed in the bible. The issue comes in between "an" anointed person and "the" anointed person. A king was "an" anointed person, but there was one to come who was "the" anointed person. This person would complete the requirements of "the anointed one". Jesus of Nazareth, completed these requirements and that is why he is Jesus the Christ or Jesus the Anointed. Many Jewish people have rejected this of Jesus, because they feel that the anointed was to remove the Roman rule. They believed this out of ignorance of the scriptures. I do not see a single word that says in all of the torah, in the Law and the Prophets, that says that the Anointed was going to remove the Roman opression. But this belief was so ingrained in the Jewish population that we became deceived and our fore fathers could not recognize the Messiah when he came. Many did follow Jesus, but many have rejected him and continue rejecting him to this day. However the good news is that the day of the gentile is coming to an end. This does not mean that gentiles will no longer will be saved. It means that the Jewish nation will open their eyes and see that Jesus is the messiah. They will see him as Lord and will proclaim him to the world.

This is a good post, but I can't click the button because it argues from the particular to the general. You may (and evidently do) have a knowledge of Jewish terms and customs, but that doesn't invalidate my experience with Christians, which indicates to me that, generally, they don't.

Incidently, it's apparently transliterated Mikvaot, and if you had said Mikvah (ritual bath), I would have known it right away.

It would probably be an interesting experiment to quotemine the OT in search of lines that could be made to look like the Messiah was intended to free Israel from foreign rule. Since it is full of warlike stuff, I'd be willing to bet you could produce two liberating Messiah quotes for every suffering servant quote.

But that's beside the point. The point is that there is really no reason to believe in a god of either Jew or gentile - or muslim, for that matter. So who was right or wrong about messiahship hardly matters.

[kdbrich]

Originally Posted by ivria66

The Hebrew Moshiach (messiah), is simply one who has been anointed. It usually speaks of a person initiated into G-d's service by being anointed with oil. Christians believe that every time moshiach appears in the Hebrew bible it must be referring to Jesus (unless a specific person's name is mentioned with it). That could't be farther from the truth. Kings and priests were anointed therefore they were moshiachs.

Can you demonstrate that they are NOT Messiah?

[AREQUIPA]

Originally Posted by kdbrich

Can you demonstrate that they are NOT Messiah?

I think ivria's point is that they were.

[kdbrich]

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

I think ivria's point is that they were.

I disagree.

[Nikk]

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

This is a good post, but I can't click the button because it argues from the particular to the general. You may (and evidently do) have a knowledge of Jewish terms and customs, but that doesn't invalidate my experience with Christians, which indicates to me that, generally, they don't.

Incidently, it's apparently transliterated Mikvaot, and if you had said Mikvah (ritual bath), I would have known it right away.

It would probably be an interesting experiment to quotemine the OT in search of lines that could be made to look like the Messiah was intended to free Israel from foreign rule. Since it is full of warlike stuff, I'd be willing to bet you could produce two liberating Messiah quotes for every suffering servant quote.

But that's beside the point. The point is that there is really no reason to believe in a god of either Jew or gentile - or muslim, for that matter. So who was right or wrong about messiahship hardly matters.

It can transliterate both ways. BTW I wrote if you said to someone, ie. phonics, so spelling would not be an issue.

There is a good reason to believe in God. Since you do not know this there is no further reason for you to comment on the Messiah.