Hell and Heaven proven false! What's next? (paradise, souls, disciples)

[katjonjj]

In the past few days I have read several very good debates about the validity of both Heaven and Hell.
(Note: Both are fantasies of the human mind for various reasons and if you wish to participate in the discussion feel free to read the other threads!)
However,
I think it's time for a good old Rapture/Second Coming debate! Share your views please!

I propose that there is no biblical basis for the rapture. Furthermore, I believe there is no biblical basis for any futuristic idea of redemption and that we have already been redeemed. The work of Christ is finished. God sits on the "throne" and is all in all. The second coming already happened.

Now, there are several reasons.

First, there are two reasons for every book in the Bible
1. Historical record.
2. Letters and/or prophecy of things to come.
Obviously historical record is another thread entirely but if you read books that are clearly written to a specific group of people who lived at the time of the authors of the letter.... why do most apply it to themselves 2000 years later when the original recipients are long dead?

Second, analyze these passages:

Matt. 16:28 "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Mark 9:1 And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."
Luke 9:27 "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

So if the kingdom of God is not here... Then why did three disciples record the same thing? That some who heard Jesus THAT DAY would not die until they saw the second coming? Are they still alive or was Jesus lying?

John 12:31 "Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out."

So now is the judgment... not at some future date but NOW as in when Jesus said it. Also corresponds to Rev 20:10-14

John 13:3 Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;
Matt: 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Jesus reigns... starting when? Way back when this was happening! Corresponding to:
Rev. 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
Rev. 20:3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Furthermore,
Matt. 27:51-53 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Corresponding to:
Rev. 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Ok so those holy people such as John the Baptist who was beheaded and those earlier who followed the word of God.... are raised.

Rev 20:7-9 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth-Gog and Magog-to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
The short time in Rev 20:3 occurred in 70AD in the massive slaughter and torture of the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Those that ran from the city as Jesus told them (Matt. 24) were saved from it:
Then the city is destroyed... the city of Jerusalem (this would be the 70AD siege of Jerusalem that Josephus records!) But it didn't last forever.
also corresponds to 1 Cor. 15: 20-28, and Matt. 24

Rev 21:1-3 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
Rev 22:10 Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.

And all of these things were written or said to people that are specific and lived during that time... In fact there are several verses in Rev 22 alone that emphasize SOON! How can it be that some still claim it is future? If I wrote a letter telling my friend to flee from the twin towers on 9/10/01 because something bad would happen. That letter would certainly be of no help to anyone on 9/12/01.... Even if I said soon and used apocalyptic verse to describe what would happen.

And that was only a partial list of the reasons but it's long enough, so we'll start there.

[Memphis1979]

Don't go confusing them with facts, people who have faith don't take well to being shown facts about a book that they hold to the word of God, that less than 25% have read its entirety.

[Boxcar Overkill]

Yes, most Christians really don't know whats actually in their little book. They rely on someone to give them the cliff notes, and somehow a lot gets left out and twisted around.

[braderjoe]

You have studied from only one religion's perspective and you summed up your conclusion....how arrogant....and sad...

[wilvan]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

And all of these things were written or said to people that are specific and lived during that time... In fact there are several verses in Rev 22 alone that emphasize SOON! How can it be that some still claim it is future? If I wrote a letter telling my friend to flee from the twin towers on 9/10/01 because something bad would happen. That letter would certainly be of no help to anyone on 9/12/01.... Even if I said soon and used apocalyptic verse to describe what would happen.

And that was only a partial list of the reasons but it's long enough, so we'll start there.

All the verses you quoted are YET to happen. The message of the Bible is really for the end time generation... which is probably us. You see, when all these things come to past, the World as we know it is finished, and Jesus Christ will be here on earth as the King of kings.

[svenM]

In the past few days I have read several very good debates about the validity of both Heaven and Hell.

you mean here in the forum or elsewhere?; I'm just interested

with heaven proven false, I suppose you mean the ressurection of the body instead of the common belief in the immortality of the soul which etiher goes to heaven or to hell at death?

[Peggy Anne]

We have heavenly and hellish moments on earth, why can't they exist elsewhere ? Open your minds, earth people !

[braderjoe]

Loads of people - atheists mainly LoL - who complain about how life is not fair, why there are hunger, disease etc etc. Why it shouldn't be that way if God exist.

People. Wake up. This earth is/was never meant to be your final plane of existence. This is just a stop - a miniscule stop in time. Our original place. Our home you might call it - the home of our father and mother Adam & Eve is Paradise. This earth is our testing ground. Where our deeds and words here will translate into either eternal happiness in Paradise or eternal agony in Hellfire. There are no 2 ways about this. Take heed.

[pie in ear]

It's not surprising that these inane threads exist, there has always been intense hatred for Christianity, what is surprising is that ppl will actually consider anything they read here worth while as opposed to sincere research.
I mean we're talking about eternal matters. Who is going to come to city data forum to decide what is true or false about a religion??? Only those who are threatened by it and are here to gripe.

[Nea1]

Originally Posted by pie in ear

It's not surprising that these inane threads exist, there has always been intense hatred for Christianity, what is surprising is that ppl will actually consider anything they read here worth while as opposed to sincere research.
I mean we're talking about eternal matters. Who is going to come to city data forum to decide what is true or false about a religion??? Only those who are threatened by it and are here to gripe.

Gee I wonder why?

Research? Believers wont truly research, the results will go against most of what they believe.