Does God Control Human Events? (salvation, translation, pray, Lord)

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by weatherologist

Would sure love for you to join us.

There's more chance of you getting a date with Frank Sinatra!

[sun]

Maybe suffering is really a blessing since those who suffer are closest in unity with God.
Nearly all of the Apostles met horrendous deaths. Their suffering must have had a positive meaning, after all they were the closest to Christ.
Of course Christ also suffered greatly, was that not by His Father's own design?
I guess that somehow, in the end, we all share Christ's suffering.
So is suffering necessarily bad?

[jeffncandace]

Originally Posted by weatherologist

IMHO, All things that come from God are good. The abuser is given free will and uses it for evil! Evil is not from God.

Doesn't the Bible say that God created evil?

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

[alicenevada]

Originally Posted by jeffncandace

Doesn't the Bible say that God created evil?

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

I think I've mentioned this before but in some bibles , the word 'evil' is replaced with 'calamity' and the context shows that more than likely this is referring to his activities in regards to retribution against the wicked, not evil in the ultimate sense. To believe God, and not Satan, was responsible for wickedness would contradict other scriptures such as James 1: 13,14 which states 'with evil things God cannot be tried'.

In bible times, God possessed the same omnipotence that he does now but used it selectively such as when it came to the fulfillment of prophecy or the outworking of his intentions. So I believe that where human actions could thwart or threaten his purposes, he steps in but not in other situations.

[jeffncandace]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_guy

That is considered predestination. This opens an entire new can of worms (to quote the illustrious Alpha...or notorious...you choose)

I know many people who would debate the validity of Calvinism. I'm not sure but since I won't put God in a box and limit Him, he may or may not know our choices...but He could know if He chooses to know. And since we have the book of Revelation and He knows what will occur in the end times, maybe He does know who chooses and who does not choose Him. It doesn't state that we accept him, but He seeks us out. It is our decision to accept or reject, not His.

Does God control our events? No. He does give us a free will to choose what we want to do and not do. He will give us suggestions through many different ways, but ultimately we make the choice. If we didn't have the opportunity to choose then we'd all believe in Him and not choose other religions or ways of life. He only wants people in His kingdom that truly want to love Him because they want to, not because they are being forced to love him.

Have you ever been in a relationship where the other person was overbearing and told you what to do, when to do it and made recommendations on what you wore? Maybe not, but that is control and God is not about controlling us. He has given a free will to choose how we will live our lives. Our choice is with or without Him.

I feel the need to point out that I am most definately NOT a Calvinist. We agree on some points, but disagree when it comes to God eternally torturing His creation and grinning gleefully from ear to ear about it.

Man HAS NO free will. Man has a brain, and with that brain he has the ability to MAKE CHOICES. Making choices has absolutely NOTHING to do with the concept of free will. All of our choices are caused by circumstances either within or without over which we have absolutely no control. We never make a choice that HAS NO CAUSE. It is a physiological impossibility. Anything that is CAUSED to happen, is not free. Computers can make choices. In fact, that is ALL they can do--make choices. But let me assure you that no computer has FREE WILL!

We all have a will, but it is anything but free to do anything without a cause. God has given us the Scriptural truth about man's supposed free will, but most have no interest in Scriptural truth whatsoever. Does God say that man can "will" whatever he wants based on HIS "free" will? Hmmm....

"For it is GOD which works IN YOU both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

Who wills in us? We, ourselves? No, GOD! One more Scriptural proof:

"Now the GOD [remember this word, 'GOD'--not SELF] of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting convenient, MAKE YOU [do you see the different between making yourself or GOD MAKING YOU?] perfect in every good work TO DO [God is doing the 'doing'] His will, WORKING IN YOU [it is not your own fabled free will working in you, but GOD!] that which is well pleasing in HIS sight [GOD'S!], through Jesus Christ; TO WHOM BE GLORY [we receive NO glory--we did NOTHING!] for ever and ever [Gk: 'eons of the eons]. Amen" (Heb. 13:21).

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by sun

Nearly all of the Apostles met horrendous deaths.

Any proof of this.......outside of the bible or other religious writings?

[jeffncandace]

Originally Posted by alicenavada

I think I've mentioned this before but in some bibles , the word 'evil' is replaced with 'calamity' and the context shows that more than likely this is referring to his activities in regards to retribution against the wicked, not evil in the ultimate sense. To believe God, and not Satan, was responsible for wickedness would contradict other scriptures such as James 1: 13,14 which states 'with evil things God cannot be tried'.

In bible times, God possessed the same omnipotence that he does now but used it selectively such as when it came to the fulfillment of prophecy or the outworking of his intentions. So I believe that where human actions could thwart or threaten his purposes, he steps in but not in other situations.

Okay, but what about these scriptures?

Here's some more in the same vein, lest I be accused of picking 1 scripture that is (seemingly) at odds with the rest of the Bible:

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?" (Lam 3:38).

" ... an experience of evil hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (Ecc. 1:13).

" ... I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives..." (II Sam. 12:11).

"That which is molded will not protest to the molder, 'Why do you make me thus?' Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet, one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:19-25).

" ... I have created the waster to destroy." (Isa. 54:16).

"The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Prov. 16:4).

" ... I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction." (Jer. 4:6).

" ... Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people ... " (Jer. 6:19).

"And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets." " ... And He [God] said, ... go forth, and do so." (I Kg. 22:22).

"He [God] turned their heart to hate his people ... " (Psa. 105:25).

" ... Thus said the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you ... " (Jer. 18:11).

" ... For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Rom. 11:32).

"O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear?" (Isa. 63:17).

" ... so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until He have destroyed you from off this good land ... " (Josh. 23:15).

" ... shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it?" (Am. 3:6).

"For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging ever son to whom He is assenting" (Heb. 12:5).

"By His spirit He hath garnished the heavens; His hand hath formed the Crooked serpent" (Job 26:14).

"And the great dragon was cast out, the Ancient serpent called Adversary and Satan ... " (Rev. 12:9).

"Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning." (I Jn 3:8).

"What? shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." (Job 2:10, see 42:7).

"Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek ... destroy ... slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ... " (I Sam. 15:2-3).

" ... God will be sending them an operation of deception for them to believe the falsehood ... " (II The. 2:11-12).

And where does "free will" (and for that matter, a "level playing field" to make the right eternal choice) come into play in light of these scriptures?

[weatherologist]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

There's more chance of you getting a date with Frank Sinatra!

eeeeeewww! I do not like him!!

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by jeffncandace

Okay, but what about these scriptures?

Here's some more in the same vein, lest I be accused of picking 1 scripture that is (seemingly) at odds with the rest of the Bible:

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?" (Lam 3:38).

" ... an experience of evil hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (Ecc. 1:13).

" ... I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives..." (II Sam. 12:11).

"That which is molded will not protest to the molder, 'Why do you make me thus?' Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet, one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:19-25).

" ... I have created the waster to destroy." (Isa. 54:16).

"The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Prov. 16:4).

" ... I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction." (Jer. 4:6).

" ... Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people ... " (Jer. 6:19).

"And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets." " ... And He [God] said, ... go forth, and do so." (I Kg. 22:22).

"He [God] turned their heart to hate his people ... " (Psa. 105:25).

" ... Thus said the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you ... " (Jer. 18:11).

" ... For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Rom. 11:32).

"O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear?" (Isa. 63:17).

" ... so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until He have destroyed you from off this good land ... " (Josh. 23:15).

" ... shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it?" (Am. 3:6).

"For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging ever son to whom He is assenting" (Heb. 12:5).

"By His spirit He hath garnished the heavens; His hand hath formed the Crooked serpent" (Job 26:14).

"And the great dragon was cast out, the Ancient serpent called Adversary and Satan ... " (Rev. 12:9).

"Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning." (I Jn 3:8).

"What? shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." (Job 2:10, see 42:7).

"Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek ... destroy ... slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ... " (I Sam. 15:2-3).

" ... God will be sending them an operation of deception for them to believe the falsehood ... " (II The. 2:11-12).

And where does "free will" (and for that matter, a "level playing field" to make the right eternal choice) come into play in light of these scriptures?

Stand by! I can feel a "You have taken those verses OUT OF CONTEXT" coming!!

[alicenevada]

Originally Posted by jeffncandace

Okay, but what about these scriptures?

Here's some more in the same vein, lest I be accused of picking 1 scripture that is (seemingly) at odds with the rest of the Bible:

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?" (Lam 3:38).

" ... an experience of evil hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (Ecc. 1:13).

" ... I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives..." (II Sam. 12:11).

"That which is molded will not protest to the molder, 'Why do you make me thus?' Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet, one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:19-25).

" ... I have created the waster to destroy." (Isa. 54:16).

"The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Prov. 16:4).

" ... I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction." (Jer. 4:6).

" ... Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people ... " (Jer. 6:19).

"And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets." " ... And He [God] said, ... go forth, and do so." (I Kg. 22:22).

"He [God] turned their heart to hate his people ... " (Psa. 105:25).

" ... Thus said the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you ... " (Jer. 18:11).

" ... For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Rom. 11:32).

"O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear?" (Isa. 63:17).

" ... so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until He have destroyed you from off this good land ... " (Josh. 23:15).

" ... shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it?" (Am. 3:6).

"For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging ever son to whom He is assenting" (Heb. 12:5).

"By His spirit He hath garnished the heavens; His hand hath formed the Crooked serpent" (Job 26:14).

"And the great dragon was cast out, the Ancient serpent called Adversary and Satan ... " (Rev. 12:9).

"Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning." (I Jn 3:8).

"What? shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." (Job 2:10, see 42:7).

"Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek ... destroy ... slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ... " (I Sam. 15:2-3).

" ... God will be sending them an operation of deception for them to believe the falsehood ... " (II The. 2:11-12).

And where does "free will" (and for that matter, a "level playing field" to make the right eternal choice) come into play in light of these scriptures?

Each of these scriptures only proves my point...that 'righteous anger' is absolutely within the rights of God and he only utilizes his destructive power when it comes to executing judgement against the wicked. And some of them are referring to 'bad things' in general that imperfect humans suffer. None of these scriptures state that he is the originator of evil in the ultimate sense though that does not mean that he doesnt ALLOW bad things to happen temporarily.

As far as 'free will' goes, that is the reason that most of us experience adversity...as a result of our own decisions or those of our fellow humans.

Again, the scripture states, in completion: "When under trial, let no one say "I am being tried by God." For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire." (so it is our sinful state coupled with 'free will' that causes trials).