The 'nature god' of atheists (behavior, bible, quote, beliefs)
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The nerve that you can just deny what you clearly just did!
"God is all there is" you say, and then "I didn't define God"
"All there IS " . . . NOT all we can prove. God is defined as the inscrutable SOURCE of all that IS . . . including the part you wish to ignore as "we don't know" because "we don't know." That not knowing does NOT eliminate the EXISTENCE! Existence and SUFFICIENT evidence of it is the quest we are on (and an indirect way of leading the unenlightened away from their "given in the inner consciousness" assumptive beliefs) . . . since philosophical erudition is not very widespread and seems to fail to penetrate the concrete.
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ARE YOU EVEN READING WHAT YOU WRITE?
I am . . . very carefully . . . but you are not. You keep injecting your BELIEFS and specificity about definitions (other than the SOURCE of ALL) . . . a symptom? (OCD).
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And I got rid of them. I said "God minus beliefs about".
Clearly if you're reading, you aren't comprehending.
Still lost in your own sophistry to support your ego.
You think you aren't, but that's idiotic because you can't have a discussion using terms that haven't been defined.
That's the problem.. you refuse to clarify definitions. Thus we go round and round, and all your huffing has tricked you into thinking you're smarter than everyone else, and maybe earned you a few lipstick marks on your ass from GldnRule. But all you've done is thrown smoke into the conversation in an attempt to obfuscate definitions.
This is a very specific quest for the justification used by atheists to bifurcate the evidence available, abscond with all the existing assigned to a pseudonomic artifice, and then demand more from theists than THEY are willing to provide for the bifurcation. This is a very narrow quest that you insist on expanding into all-encompassing definitional garbage amid the BELIEFS ABOUT. Try to stay on point. Do you have sufficient philosophical discipline to do that?
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And again now (or still) you get your panties in a bunch over semantics..
Pathetic.. you don't even understand that you are talking about beliefs, while berating us for doing so.
If you weren't talking about beliefs, you would be talking about only what has been validated by science. AND NO ONE IS DENYING THE EXISTENCE OF WHAT HAS BEEN SCIENTIFICALLY VALIDATED.
You are the one arguing over semantics (specific definitions in conflict using BELIEFS). YOU are denying what it is evidence OF without explanation, justification, or anything even resembling a scientific rationale for doing so. The more rigorous philosophical attempts have failed to gain any intellectual traction here. I foolishly believed we could attack it from the other end using ONLY the concrete . . . silly me.
Mystic insists "........stick with scientific parameters for the EVIDENCE (NOT the definition) of God/Creator or not."
How is one supposed to find evidence of something that isn't defined?
Tell you what......you tell me where I can find (I'm not going to tell you what) Just tell me where I might find it.
You shouldn't need a definition or description of what it is, right?
"you don't even understand that you are talking about beliefs, while berating us for doing so "
Logic gets the points on this one ^^
My initial estimation of your perspicacity may have been too rushed and based on insufficient evidence from too few posts.
Hummmmm, I'll remember that the next time I am shoveling dog excreta out of my yard. Do you want me to send it to you?
I fear you are mired too deep in the concrete to penetrate with the "laser of enlightenment" . . . keep the feces . . it seems to fit the extent of your worldview.
I was wondering about that very thing and have concluded it is deliberate obtuseness . . . either driven subconsciously by Cognitive Dissonance or consciously for spite. When you cannot comprehend that . . . what is responsible for your existence is your Creator . . . something is seriously wrong intellectually. The elevator is skipping floors . . or doesn't go high enough or . . . something!
Mystic...This is pure speculation on your part and there is NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF of this one way or the other whatsoever. You "BELIEVE" that you have a Creator/God...athiests "BELIEVE" there is no Creator/God...this has become a completely circular argument that can't be PROVEN SCIENTIFICALLY in either direction no matter how loudly each side blusters. You "BELIEVE" because there is order in the universe and because there are universal laws which govern us that there must be a Creator...but there is NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF THIS as you've stated.
From your posts I am gathering (and please correct me if I am wrong) that your concept or definition of the term God is the Universal Force/Nature/Energy/Laws that govern us....while most conceptualize the term God as the god that is presented in the bible, a supernatural diety...perhaps this is where so much confusion is coming into play.
Now...is your concept of God/Nature/the Universe conscious or does it have a consciousness??? That is something NONE of us knows and speculating because we have a consciousness that your concept of God/Nature/the Universe must have one also is just that....SPECULATION. Until we have difinitive answers about why the Universe works the way it does and how exactly we came to be (which we most certainly DO NOT HAVE AT THIS TIME)....speculation is all we have.
"All there IS " . . . NOT all we can prove.God is defined as the inscrutable SOURCE of all that IS . . . including the part you wish to ignore as "we don't know" because "we don't know."
You just defined it AGAIN! Hahahaha!
"I'm not defining anything.."
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
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That not knowing does NOT eliminate the EXISTENCE!
So I'm supposed to accept the existence of things I can't know anything about? IDIOTIC!
Oh wait, you simply mean that I'm denying the existence of the universe. EVEN MORE IDIOTIC!
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You keep injecting your BELIEFS and specificity about definitions (other than the SOURCE of ALL)
Oh please. Quote where I have "injected beliefs".
Specificity, yes. YOU CAN'T HAVE A DISCUSSION WITH TERMS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN DEFINED! I don't know WHY you continue to try!
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. . . a symptom? (OCD). This is a very specific quest for the justification used by atheists to bifurcate the evidence available, abscond with all the existing assigned to a pseudonomic artifice, and then demand more from theists than THEY are willing to provide for the bifurcation. This is a very narrow quest that you insist on expanding into all-encompassing definitional garbage amid the BELIEFS ABOUT.
Again. Read very slowly. Read it again. Think about it.
You want to remove 'beliefs about' from the conversation - well that includes all discussion of consciousness vs non-consciousness, leaving only what is scientifically validated. So, what's the point? Again, no one is denying the existence of what is scientifically validated.
Atheist: There's no evidence of "God".
Mystic: "God" simply means 'the universe; all that exists'
Atheist: Well, obviously I don't deny the existence of the universe and everything. I'm talking about there's no evidence of "God consciousness"
Mystic: That's a belief! You can deny the existence of that, but not the existence of "God"!
Atheist: I already told you that I don't deny the existence of the universe, and if 'the universe' is your definition of "God" then I don't deny the existence of "God" by your definition.
Mystic: You're injecting your beliefs into it. I didn't define "God", I said "God" is everything there is!
Atheist:
God is defined as the inscrutable SOURCE of all that IS . . . including the part you wish to ignore as "we don't know" because "we don't know." That not knowing does NOT eliminate the EXISTENCE!
Who defined God in this way???
That not knowing does NOT prove the EXISTENCE either.
Mystic...This is pure speculation on your part and there is NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF of this one way or the other whatsoever. You "BELIEVE" that you have a Creator/God...athiests "BELIEVE" there is no Creator/God...this has become a completely circular argument that can't be PROVEN SCIENTIFICALLY in either direction no matter how loudly each side blusters. You "BELIEVE" because there is order in the universe and because there are universal laws which govern us that there must be a Creator...but there is NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF THIS as you've stated.
It is irrational to presume that there is no SOURCE for ALL that has been created . . . no matter how you define or what you believe about creation. That which "creates" is a Creator . . . whatever we BELIEVE about its attributes (conscious/mindless. etc.) So to claim there is no evidence for Creator/God in the face of all this creation is absurd. What we can differ on are BELIEFS ABOUT this Creator/God . . . NOT its existence. I am criticized for tautology when I use the label God/Creator . . . and yet the label "Nature" is equally tautological.
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From your posts I am gathering (and please correct me if I am wrong) that your concept or definition of the term God is the Universal Force/Nature/Energy/Laws that govern us....while most conceptualize the term God as the god that is presented in the bible, a supernatural diety...perhaps this is where so much confusion is coming into play.
You are correct that the confusion stems from the antipathy (justified) for religions and their BELIEFS ABOUT our God/Creator. Those BELIEFS are justifiable targets for criticism and/or rejection . . . NOT the EXISTENCE of the underlying reality that they purport to define and describe.
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Now...is your concept of God/Nature/the Universe conscious or does it have a consciousness??? That is something NONE of us knows and speculating because we have a consciousness that your concept of God/Nature/the Universe must have one also is just that....SPECULATION. Until we have difinitive answers about why the Universe works the way it does and how exactly we came to be (which we most certainly DO NOT HAVE AT THIS TIME)....speculation is all we have.
This argument will have no traction with ME, Christy. if you are unaware of my background . . . I was completely on the other side of this issue for decades . . . and then acquired PERSONAL validation that is undeniable FOR ME . . . that our God/Creator is conscious. I had to start from scratch and rethink all that I KNEW in light of this experiential epiphany.
Thank you for this sincere request for clarification (indicating an actual openness to other views. I am unaware of your philosophical background or understanding so if I missed the mark . . . just say so. I have had no success tailoring the discussion to the extant level of philosophical sophistication here.
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