Atheists have a personal morality vs. a fear based morality (protestants, Catholic)

[Asheville Native]

Originally Posted by Thomas R.

Gallup global study agrees.

But it compares only the "religiosity" (what ever the hell that is) with the suicide rate.

But what about all the other factors that are the true reasons that people choose suicide?

You know, alcohol or drub abuse, divorce, bankruptcy, losing a job, losing a loved one, terminal illness, clinical depression, poverty, homelessness, accidental, bullies at school, the culture of the country, which religion (is it a sin withing that religion)

I understand the desperation to prove your point, but all you found is a statistic that ignores 99% of the causation's, and focused only on religion. That data may not be wrong, but it is clearly immaterial.

If you had dug a bit deeper you would see you are supporting the wrong religion, as Islamic's have a significantly lower rate than christians.

[Thomas R.]

Originally Posted by Asheville Native

But it compares only the "religiosity" (what ever the hell that is) with the suicide rate.

But what about all the other factors that are the true reasons that people choose suicide?

The article itself says what they mean by religiosity and the reason for suicide is irrelevant here. The point is in religious societies people will overcome or just not have those reasons.

Originally Posted by Asheville Native

You know, alcohol or drug abuse, divorce, bankruptcy, losing a job, losing a loved one, terminal illness, clinical depression, poverty, homelessness, accidental, bullies at school, the culture of the country, which religion (is it a sin withing that religion)

Other factors play a role in suicide rates, but unless you want to argue religious countries have less divorce and drug abuse (so religion isn't the reason) I'm not sure I see your point here.

Originally Posted by Asheville Native

I understand the desperation to prove your point

I have no desperation on this matter, I think you might be projecting.

Originally Posted by Asheville Native

but all you found is a statistic that ignores 99% of the causation's, and focused only on religion. That data may not be wrong, but it is clearly immaterial.

You're wanting to have it both ways here. You want to say "more atheistic countries are more moral", by ignoring all the other factors where those societies differ from the US, than play "correlation isn't causation" when the correlation leads to a result that doesn't suit you.

If we're going to go with correlations than I'm free to add correlations you don't like. Why not? If you want to dump arguments by correlation altogether I'm good with that. However I won't agree to playing it with a double standard to make you look good. Not going to happen.

Originally Posted by Asheville Native

If you had dug a bit deeper you would see you are supporting the wrong religion, as Islamic's have a significantly lower rate than christians.

Sigh, I'm perfectly aware of that. I've probably known about that since high school. Still here's the nations they list as having under 1 suicide per 16,000. (Chosen as 6.25 per 100,000 is the lowest for those in the more secular column)

Kuwait - Muslim
Philippines - Predominately Catholic (Over 70%, but also sizable Pentecostal and Muslim minorities)
Paraguay - Catholic
Guatemala - Historically Catholic, but now barely so and 40% Protestant. (Largely Pentecostal)
Dominican Republic - Catholic
Colombia - Catholic
Brazil - 70% Catholic (Sizable Pentecostal minority and African religionist)
Haiti - Catholic and Voodoo
Ecuador - Catholic
Peru - Catholic
Venezuela - Catholic
Mexico - Catholic
Georgia - Eastern Orthodox
Greece - Eastern Orthodox
Uzbekistan - Muslim
Armenia - Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox
Tajikistan - Muslim

Number of Muslim nations - 3
Number that are Predominately Catholic nations - 9
Number that are majority Catholic - 11
My religion - Catholic

It's strange that the "Council of Secular Humanism" is more flexible and willing to concede one thing than you are.

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by Asheville Native

But what about all the other factors that are the true reasons that people choose suicide?

Good point - but a belief that there will be NO negative afterlife consequences - no having to "retake the test" (re-incarnation) no hell or big spanking from God nor any loss of afterlife virtue (or whatever) must make it a bit easier to pull the trigger, no?

[mommabear2]

I'd rather a person do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing vs. the "WWJD" mentality (seriously, who has to ask a question like that to themselves in order to be moral... eh hmmm, not an atheist that's for sure..)

I think religious people are some of the worst among us morally just based on the hypocrisy they - more often than not - live. I can't say that about Atheist because there's so few of them in comparison (I'm agnostic btw). Who runs this world? Believers. And they suuuuuck at it.

It doesn't matter what you believe, it's one's conduct that dictates morality.

wwjd? = what would jesus do?... for those who haven't seen those ubiquitous stickers/t-shirts.

[Dewdroplet76]

Originally Posted by firstborn888

Good point - but a belief that there will be NO negative afterlife consequences - no having to "retake the test" (re-incarnation) no hell or big spanking from God nor any loss of afterlife virtue (or whatever) must make it a bit easier to pull the trigger, no?

That actually makes sense to me. Then again, I've never been suicidal, so I guess I really couldn't say if any of that would come into play.

[Thomas R.]

Originally Posted by mommabear2

I'd rather a person do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing vs. the "WWJD" mentality (seriously, who has to ask a question like that to themselves in order to be moral... eh hmmm, not an atheist that's for sure..)

I don't think Christians really ask it quite so formally that often. However there are situations where it might be necessary to reflect a bit before making a decision. You may dislike using someone else as an example in such cases, but I don't think it's a notion unique to Christianity or maybe even religion. (There are people who think "what would Gandhi do in this situation", even if they're not Hindu, or what have you)

Originally Posted by mommabear2

I think religious people are some of the worst among us morally just based on the hypocrisy they - more often than not - live. I can't say that about Atheist because there's so few of them in comparison (I'm agnostic btw).

Although atheists can certainly be highly moral atheism in itself is not a system of morals or beliefs so hypocrisy might just not be possible in it.

Still can atheists be hypocritical Humanists, Environmentalists, Positivists, Utilitarians, Marxists, Randians, Nietzscheans, Feminists, or whatever? I would think so.

Often though I feel that people who talk about "the hypocrisy of religious people" don't know what they mean. If hypocrisy is having a standard you may not reach a 100% then everyone is a hypocrite unless they have no standards whatsoever. That would make hypocrisy largely meaningless. I think hypocrisy is more about unfairly placing yourself above others or demanding standards that you have no intention of even trying to obey in your own life.

Originally Posted by mommabear2

Who runs this world? Believers. And they suuuuuck at it.

I'm not sure "believers" really run the world. The world is largely ran by the wealthiest nations and in most wealthy nations the ruling class is not very religious or not at all religious. Even on the conservative end of the world's politics that's largely true. Bush Jr was religious, but I never got the sense Cheney was particularly religious. Go back a ways Dole once indicated he doesn't believe in the afterlife even though his wife is pretty religious.

Also I'm not sure the world is all that bad anyway, even in a secular sense. People don't die of smallpox anymore, an African American can be President of the US, an atheistic woman leads Australia, we can communicate vast distance, and I'm not sure any genocide is still going on.

Originally Posted by mommabear2

It doesn't matter what you believe, it's one's conduct that dictates morality.

I think it would matter to the extent that what you believe informs or influences your conduct. Everyone believes something. Atheism isn't a rejection of any belief in anything, it's just a rejection of belief in God. (Although generally atheism implies a rejection of all supernatural forces or entities. In theory a person could legitimately call themselves "atheist" even if they believed in karma, psychic powers, lucky charms, and spirits. In practice I'm uncertain that would ever happen or that such a person would be accepted as "an atheist.")

So I think it certainly matters what you believe. A person who believes children under-3 are not "people", and can be killed whenever they become inconvenient, has an evil belief system that may lead to evil actions. Or a person who believes Jews are inherently untrustworthy, and therefore can be killed whenever it's convenient, is evil. Or whatever.

[GCSTroop]

I think there are several key differences everyone is missing out on in this debate. Sure, you can point to several different statistics citing murder rates, rape, kidnappings, etc... and say that religion is more prevalent in countries where that happens than, say, a place like Japan, Norway or Sweden where crime and religious rates are low but suicides are slightly higher.

I think what you are looking at is more of a byproduct of an underlying problem which makes it easier to draw very simple conclusions to a complex problem. Personally, I think the reason you see religious nations with higher crime rates is because of a severe lack of education and higher poverty rates. Education and poverty are two very reliable and distinct statistics that have shown clear links between crime rates and various other public problems. Less educated societies tend to be more religious for a variety of reasons but one of them, I presume, is because people have bigger and better things to worry about in their lives than whether or not a God exists. They accept it, figure that's the way things are, and then they go and hopefully try to find dinner for their family. Debating the topic is probably not very high on the agenda and getting an education which allows people's minds to think upon deeper topics is often put on the back burner as well.

There are a few exceptions, of course, and most of them are the oil-rich Muslim countries. The low crime rates, higher standards of education and high religiosity there, I think, have more to do with the brutal ways in which they still punish citizens who have committed a crime. Not to mention, all of the public schooling and government is run as almost a complete theocracy. My guess is the Atheist population in the Muslim world is actually higher than we think but not a single one of them would dare come out and admit - and probably for good reason.

In so much as the higher suicide rates in places like Sweden, Norway, Japan, etc... I think education and social stigma play a lot into that. I can speak from experience about Japan in that they can often seem to be a very emotionally downplayed society. Gratification and rewards for a job well done are not doled out nearly as easy there as they are in the West. Their culture was borne out of the age of the Samurai in which suicide was seen as an honorable way to admit failure and this sociological concept has not really changed all that much - despite the horrendously fast-paced and technologically advanced society that much of modern day Japan has become.

As for places like Sweden, Norway, and I think Estonia was mentioned... Let's face it. The weather sucks. You don't see sunlight very often and it's cold... Constantly... I can imagine that people with a predisposition towards depression have a much harder time in places such as that than they would in a place like Phoenix, Arizona. Of course, I'm not saying sunlight is the sole cause for suicides as that would be quite the abstraction but I do think it probably makes it harder on people who are already depressed or are suffering from depression which can, in my opinion, probably lead to a cascade effect of other out-of-control feelings.

I think, at the very least, there are far too many variables to say that religion or "irreligion" are solely responsible for murder rates, suicide rates, and other crimes and misdeeds.

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by Dewdrop93

That actually makes sense to me. Then again, I've never been suicidal, so I guess I really couldn't say if any of that would come into play.

I've been very suicidal many many times in the past due to severe physical health issues. I was not having emotional/psychological problems (such as depression) except that which any logical/practical person would have when confronted with 24/7 physical agony and the ensuing sleep deprivation.

Since I am a follower of Jesus but have no belief in the traditional Christian hell my only concern about the afterlife was: did I pass the test I am here to pass (which I count a privilege to suffer for if necessary) and I guess there was a little fear of having to do a repeat. (not that I believe in reincarnation - suffice to say that spiritually/ethereally - I wanted a completed journey, NOT an aborted one).

After about ten years and no relief to speak of I finally threw the above idea to the wind - screw that! I thought "NO one could bear this - no one. Not the bravest man or woman and certainly not me" (for those curious I suffered brain damage and my lungs only work voluntarily and my airway was slowly collapsing).

Toward the end I did completely lose my mind through sleep deprivation (for those who don't know - after 96 hrs. or so you may start dreaming while you are awake and won't know the difference! Do it over and over for a few months/years and you will NOT be a happy camper - I guarantee that )

So I apologized to God, to my wife for the umpteenth time ("Sorry - I can't/I won't do this anymore - for really real this time") and left the house to weigh all the options of how, tried to determine (in my hazy maze of an oxygen deprived brain) what would be the cleanest/best least traumatic for those left behind.

Right then, curled up in a ball - the side of my face pressed into the ground, a picture of my youngest daughter came into my head with perfect clarity. She was 10 years old. I knew my oldest (17) and my wife would survive and understood that though I would never want to leave them it was impossible for me to continue but I saw that to my youngest it was not comprehensible why I would leave her and that her inner wound would be immense. Basically - I would ruin her whole life.

"DAMN!" I thought. "Trapped again!" Somehow - my love for her trumped my seemingly unbearable suffering and I went to yet another level of endurance (I'd been through hundreds of levels over thousands of sleepless days/nights). But it resonated in me like thunder "NO MATTER WHAT - I WILL NOT WILLINGLY TAKE MYSELF OUT. I WILL ENDURE ANYTHING".

That was almost 9 years ago and obviously I am here and coherent - though breathing through a trach tube and sleeping only by mechanical ventilation.

All that to say - love and compassion for others is the root of all morality (AISI of course). It is not confined to any boundaries of religion or non-religion, of faith or non-faith. It can infect anyone and in it's purest form infects no-one I know who lives in a physical body (remember - my choice was based on someone I cared about and was close to and was innocent. In a purer form one would endure it for a stranger. In it's purest form - for an enemy. So I'm not even close).

The bible - though mired down with many ugly stories and contradictory ideas DOES have moments of clarity, of singular truths that trump all other passages. One such would be: "Love works no ill to it's neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfilling of the law". Romans 13:10

So (to me) it's not about an afterlife at all - but about an ever-life, a quality of inner existence which (I believe) transcends time altogether. I have seen this same quality of love to one degree or another (or at least a desire for it or a recognition that it exists) in some Hindus, some Christians, some Jews, some Atheists, some Muslims, some Alcoholics. Even a former wife beater (which I despise like few others) acknowledged a need and been 'reborn' to a person who will harm no-one.

The common thread? All humans and all descendants of humans (AKA "The son of man" ).

I personally give the Creator all credit for all this but to me that doesn't diminish anyone else who doesn't see it that way.

Also - I don't want to come off like I think I'm some tough guy or anything - I'm a wimp with a low pain tolerance and I whine constantly (like a baby) if I get the flu or something. Yet there is something stronger than me in me. Does that make any sense?

And I fully realize the hyper poetic dramatic bend to my rantings (could you hear the string orchestra playing softly in the background???? ) and can laugh at it all.

[Dewdroplet76]

Originally Posted by firstborn888

I've been very suicidal many many times in the past due to severe physical health issues. I was not having emotional/psychological problems (such as depression) except that which any logical/practical person would have when confronted with 24/7 physical agony and the ensuing sleep deprivation.

Since I am a follower of Jesus but have no belief in the traditional Christian hell my only concern about the afterlife was: did I pass the test I am here to pass (which I count a privilege to suffer for if necessary) and I guess there was a little fear of having to do a repeat. (not that I believe in reincarnation - suffice to say that spiritually/ethereally - I wanted a completed journey, NOT an aborted one).

After about ten years and no relief to speak of I finally threw the above idea to the wind - screw that! I thought "NO one could bear this - no one. Not the bravest man or woman and certainly not me" (for those curious I suffered brain damage and my lungs only work voluntarily and my airway was slowly collapsing).

Toward the end I did completely lose my mind through sleep deprivation (for those who don't know - after 96 hrs. or so you may start dreaming while you are awake and won't know the difference! Do it over and over for a few months/years and you will NOT be a happy camper - I guarantee that )

So I apologized to God, to my wife for the umpteenth time ("Sorry - I can't/I won't do this anymore - for really real this time") and left the house to weigh all the options of how, tried to determine (in my hazy maze of an oxygen deprived brain) what would be the cleanest/best least traumatic for those left behind.

Right then, curled up in a ball - the side of my face pressed into the ground, a picture of my youngest daughter came into my head with perfect clarity. She was 10 years old. I knew my oldest (17) and my wife would survive and understood that though I would never want to leave them it was impossible for me to continue but I saw that to my youngest it was not comprehensible why I would leave her and that her inner wound would be immense. Basically - I would ruin her whole life.

"DAMN!" I thought. "Trapped again!" Somehow - my love for her trumped my seemingly unbearable suffering and I went to yet another level of endurance (I'd been through hundreds of levels over thousands of sleepless days/nights). But it resonated in me like thunder "NO MATTER WHAT - I WILL NOT WILLINGLY TAKE MYSELF OUT. I WILL ENDURE ANYTHING".

That was almost 9 years ago and obviously I am here and coherent - though breathing through a trach tube and sleeping only by mechanical ventilation.

All that to say - love and compassion for others is the root of all morality (AISI of course). It is not confined to any boundaries of religion or non-religion, of faith or non-faith. It can infect anyone and in it's purest form infects no-one I know who lives in a physical body (remember - my choice was based on someone I cared about and was close to and was innocent. In a purer form one would endure it for a stranger. In it's purest form - for an enemy. So I'm not even close).

The bible - though mired down with many ugly stories and contradictory ideas DOES have moments of clarity, of singular truths that trump all other passages. One such would be: "Love works no ill to it's neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfilling of the law". Romans 13:10

So (to me) it's not about an afterlife at all - but about an ever-life, a quality of inner existence which (I believe) transcends time altogether. I have seen this same quality of love to one degree or another (or at least a desire for it or a recognition that it exists) in some Hindus, some Christians, some Jews, some Atheists, some Muslims, some Alcoholics. Even a former wife beater (which I despise like few others) acknowledged a need and been 'reborn' to a person who will harm no-one.

The common thread? All humans and all descendants of humans (AKA "The son of man" ).

I personally give the Creator all credit for all this but to me that doesn't diminish anyone else who doesn't see it that way.

Also - I don't want to come off like I think I'm some tough guy or anything - I'm a wimp with a low pain tolerance and I whine constantly (like a baby) if I get the flu or something. Yet there is something stronger than me in me. Does that make any sense?

And I fully realize the hyper poetic dramatic bend to my rantings (could you hear the string orchestra playing softly in the background???? ) and can laugh at it all.

If you could see me - you would see the tears welling up in my eyes! I'm so sorry for all that you have had to endure. You might try and downplay your courage - but you couldn't have gone through that with out a big amount of it!
Your story kind of confirms for me what the whole point of this big show is - love! Pure and simple! And I agree - no group of people has the monopoly on love.

[mommabear2]

Originally Posted by Thomas R.

I don't think Christians really ask it quite so formally that often. However there are situations where it might be necessary to reflect a bit before making a decision. You may dislike using someone else as an example in such cases, but I don't think it's a notion unique to Christianity or maybe even religion. (There are people who think "what would Gandhi do in this situation", even if they're not Hindu, or what have you)



Although atheists can certainly be highly moral atheism in itself is not a system of morals or beliefs so hypocrisy might just not be possible in it.

Still can atheists be hypocritical Humanists, Environmentalists, Positivists, Utilitarians, Marxists, Randians, Nietzscheans, Feminists, or whatever? I would think so.

Often though I feel that people who talk about "the hypocrisy of religious people" don't know what they mean. If hypocrisy is having a standard you may not reach a 100% then everyone is a hypocrite unless they have no standards whatsoever. That would make hypocrisy largely meaningless. I think hypocrisy is more about unfairly placing yourself above others or demanding standards that you have no intention of even trying to obey in your own life.



I'm not sure "believers" really run the world. The world is largely ran by the wealthiest nations and in most wealthy nations the ruling class is not very religious or not at all religious. Even on the conservative end of the world's politics that's largely true. Bush Jr was religious, but I never got the sense Cheney was particularly religious. Go back a ways Dole once indicated he doesn't believe in the afterlife even though his wife is pretty religious.

Also I'm not sure the world is all that bad anyway, even in a secular sense. People don't die of smallpox anymore, an African American can be President of the US, an atheistic woman leads Australia, we can communicate vast distance, and I'm not sure any genocide is still going on.



I think it would matter to the extent that what you believe informs or influences your conduct. Everyone believes something. Atheism isn't a rejection of any belief in anything, it's just a rejection of belief in God. (Although generally atheism implies a rejection of all supernatural forces or entities. In theory a person could legitimately call themselves "atheist" even if they believed in karma, psychic powers, lucky charms, and spirits. In practice I'm uncertain that would ever happen or that such a person would be accepted as "an atheist.")

So I think it certainly matters what you believe. A person who believes children under-3 are not "people", and can be killed whenever they become inconvenient, has an evil belief system that may lead to evil actions. Or a person who believes Jews are inherently untrustworthy, and therefore can be killed whenever it's convenient, is evil. Or whatever.

You and I probably have a very different perspective of the world.

Religious people use a book inspired by "god" to help them lead a "righteous life." A moral atheist doesn't need a reference book. They are (and I can't speak for all nonbelievers) influenced by family, friends, society, science, logic amongst others in addition to having a singular sense of personal moral obligation.

The wwjd campaign - IMO - was a way to help Christians think thru their actions... to become a better Christian. Why would a campaign like this be needed anyway?

I would disagree with your statement that the ruling class are not religious or not at all religious. Take for example, the U.S. Congress, or even our own President. How many of them are associated to or proclaimed "believers"? And how many of them are atheist? Also, the wealthiest nations are absolutely influenced by religion - take Saudi Arabia, Dubai, and even the United States (thru representation by religious people), etc. Also, in the case of the U.S., the religious conservatives are a powerful influence on our political landscape (why else would John McCain have Palin as VP candidate... but that's for another thread).


As far as the "hypocrisy of religious people" (and not knowing what it means). Take, for example, our President. I forget what religious denomination he belongs to... I believe he claims to be a Christian and yet supports abortion rights (which you deem as evil)... is that not a hypocritical standpoint for a religious person? Is that a contradiction to the Christian faith? So, I think people do know religious hypocrisy when they see it. Or at least I do.

As far as the world not being that bad. I don't know... when a person slams airplanes into buildings full of people in the name of Allah - that doesn't sound like such a wonderful world to me. That's an extreme example of course. Oh, and genocide still exists (Darfur is an example).