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Whether or not you or anyone else chooses to believe the Bible is missing the point. If the Bible is in fact true, that would put those believing in true revelation in a much better position with respect to knowledge about God's character.
Yes but fortunately, as all educated people know, the Bible is NOT true. It is a fact that, aside from the plethora of errors and contradictions, the majority of its materials were plagiarized from earlier myths. Even the god of the Bible is a man made totem deity of an obscure desert tribe, with human character traits and characteristics (including his name) all cobbled together from a host of earlier gods.
Bible god is certainly NOT a logical or rational choice for supreme being of the universe. So no,the Bible give you ZERO advantage in respect to knowledge of GOD's character.
Other than the fact that all the available evidence points in that direction.
Such as?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnab gib
Seriously ... anything is more "reasonable" than saying an invisible sky magician poofed it all into existence. You might as well say two unicorns and a leprechaun did it, for all the logic and usefulness any religious claim brings to the table.
Well there we go. A totally open minded approach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnab gib
And of course the Bible lends itself to no independent verification. It's all just a bunch of fantastical, unprovable claims, no different from the gods and creation stories that dozens of other cultures have dreamed up over the millenia. What makes the Bible story any more credible than the Hindu creation myths, for example? Nothing.
Go back and reread my post. The assertion was if A, then B logically follows. Whether or not you believe the Bible matters not. The ultimate question is that if the Bible is in fact true, those actually believing in the revealed truth would have a distinct advantage with respect to knowledge of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnab gib
Because that's what the available evidence points to. It's really not a hard concept to grasp.
Which "available evidence" are you referring to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnab gib
The best evidence we have is that the universe has always existed, but it is not definitive. I guess you think you feel smug thinking you've caught me in a contradiction, but you haven't. Unlike you, I HAVE NO IDEA how the universe ultimately "began." What we know logically SUGGESTS that the universe is eternal, but WE DON'T KNOW. Science could produce new evidence tomorrow that tells us something different entirely. And THAT'S OK. I'm not the one defensively clinging to a 2,000-year-old myth in the face of mounds of contradictory evidence. If science leads us in a new direction, that's fine. Hell, if someone proves that the entire Genesis creation story is true, as unlikely and absurd as that seems, then that's fine, too.
I go as far as logic and reason will take me and then say "I don't know." Again, this doesn't seem to be a hard concept to grasp .
Right, right - your open to every possibility. I'm so impressed!
Yes but fortunately, as all educated people know, the Bible is NOT true. It is a fact that, aside from the plethora of errors and contradictions, the majority of its materials were plagiarized from earlier myths. Even the god of the Bible is a man made totem deity of an obscure desert tribe, with human character traits and characteristics (including his name) all cobbled together from a host of earlier gods.
Bible god is certainly NOT a logical or rational choice for supreme being of the universe. So no,the Bible give you ZERO advantage in respect to knowledge of GOD's character.
Yes but fortunately, as all educated people know, the Bible is NOT true. It is a fact that, aside from the plethora of errors and contradictions, the majority of its materials were plagiarized from earlier myths. Even the god of the Bible is a man made totem deity of an obscure desert tribe, with human character traits and characteristics (including his name) all cobbled together from a host of earlier gods.
Bible god is certainly NOT a logical or rational choice for supreme being of the universe. So no,the Bible give you ZERO advantage in respect to knowledge of GOD's character .
Go back and reread my post. The assertion was if A, then B logically follows. Whether or not you believe the Bible matters not. The ultimate question is that if the Bible is in fact true, those actually believing in the revealed truth would have a distinct advantage with respect to knowledge of God.
What if the Bible isn't true? I'm not saying it is or it isn't - to be honest, I don't really care one way or the other. But I'm just saying - what if it isn't true? I mean, I don't know the answer - I didn't write it - and I don't know the people that did, either. But say it was all made up - where would that leave things then?
I bet my science class project hypothesis is looking better all the time! I don't understand why I don't have more of a following...
I'm short on time at the moment but this is an excellent, simple, and general overview which cites a number of different papers relating to the topic and has a variety of very good and useful information relating to the evidence of the Big Bang.
Yes but fortunately, as all educated people know, the Bible is NOT true.
Huh?!! Then how do you explain all the great scientists that are Believers?
MOF, it seems to me to be the "litmus test" for true greatness as a scientist. The best of the best are the Believers...the lesser are not.
You guys will make up anything to try to support your fringe concept, of near negligible influence.
I suggest you try to shake your Napoleon Complex...quit trying to "conquer" to feign merit.
I have some really good advice for the Atheists---You guys have FSM and IPU, and they are really starting to catch on...much more so than that Atheism stuff. So, promote FSM or IPU...it will give you a WAAAAAAAY better chance at getting noticed. That way, you won't feel so left out.
See that?...I got it all figured out for you!! But that's okay...you don't have to thank me. I'm more than happy to help. LOVE YA!!
No one wants to address the comment that the bible does not mention a thing about what was before Genesis?
I'm not asking for the 4000th rehash of what was before but why it's never mentioned in THE book
Huh?!! Then how do you explain all the great scientists that are Believers?
MOF, it seems to me to be the "litmus test" for true greatness as a scientist. The best of the best are the Believers...the lesser are not.
You guys will make up anything to try to support your fringe concept, of near negligible influence.
I suggest you try to shake your Napoleon Complex...quit trying to "conquer" to feign merit.
I have some really good advice for the Atheists---You guys have FSM and IPU, and they are really starting to catch on...much more so than that Atheism stuff. So, promote FSM or IPU...it will give you a WAAAAAAAY better chance at getting noticed. That way, you won't feel so left out.
See that?...I got it all figured out for you!! But that's okay...you don't have to thank me. I'm more than happy to help. LOVE YA!!
Wow... You sure are the arrogant and uppity sort aren't you?
Majority rules means nothing when it comes to reality, GldnRule. If it did, then Euclid would have been consulting Zeus about matters of science while Caesar consulted Mars about the best way to formulate a battle plan and you would say "Oh, they were great because they consulted the deity of the day!" I think it's a pretty arrogant and self-righteous statement to say the best of the best are believers. For most of human history, I will grant that everyone believed in a God of sorts so statistically the chances of great scientists (or any other people) believing in God are pretty overwhelming.
You get all bent out of shape when religion is criticized or attacked and you stand up and defend opinions of the religious majority that are, quite frankly, absurd. Religion has every right to be criticized. Faith is not and should not be a free pass to say "You cannot criticize what I believe because it's insulting." That is exactly why religion has gotten away with what it has for so long - degrading humanity in the most vile and wretched of ways.
But, you accommodate it like a date to the prom. You escort it, kiss it, and, it would seem, hope to put it in the backseat of your car and make love to it. Let's be realistic, though. Someone must be wrong and in order to get to the bottom of who is right and wrong - some things need to be thrown out. I'd say a good place to start would be by criticizing and pointing out the flaws of modern day, literalist religion. We live in the 21st century - not the Dark Ages and not the Bronze Age. Let's be realistic that the notion of God as an entity outside of time and space who just so happens to be a caricature of we human beings and created the Earth some 6,000 years ago is, well, absurd and nothing more. Why should I be stopped from saying that?
I'll say this... We are not shooting up churches. We are not persecuting or confining Christians and people of other religions to death camps. We are not invading countries of differing faiths and we are not taking military action to destroy other people's faiths. That stuff is all the stuff for religion - majority rules, right?? But, you get annoyed and upset when religion is criticized. It's being verbally attacked with words - not with ammunition, rockets, bombs, IED's, vests made of C4, or underwear with Semtex linings. If you have a problem with the way words are written, the way things are satired or criticized than perhaps you should take a deep breath and ignore it instead of pandering to every religious dogmatic nonsense under the sun.
Sure, you can say every great person was truly religious. But, to many extents, so was every horrendously evil person. Hitler had the occult and vague remnants of Christianity, Stalin and Kim Jong Il turned themselves into demi-gods (religious figureheads of State Worship), Mao Zedong did the same. So, if you want to claim credit that religion has brought the "best of the best" than you may as well take it that it also brought forth the "worst of the worst."
Get over the criticisms of religion. They're words and they seem to be far more effective than bombs and bullets - the preferred choice of religions everywhere.
The pen is mightier than the sword. At least the vast majority of Atheists can adhere to that testament instead of defending organizations that have slaughtered and maimed people in the name of "God" for hundreds upon thousands of years. Flying Spaghetti Monster? You betchya!
Wow... You sure are the arrogant and uppity sort aren't you?
Majority rules means nothing when it comes to reality, GldnRule. If it did, then Euclid would have been consulting Zeus about matters of science while Caesar consulted Mars about the best way to formulate a battle plan and you would say "Oh, they were great because they consulted the deity of the day!" I think it's a pretty arrogant and self-righteous statement to say the best of the best are believers. For most of human history, I will grant that everyone believed in a God of sorts so statistically the chances of great scientists (or any other people) believing in God are pretty overwhelming.
You get all bent out of shape when religion is criticized or attacked and you stand up and defend opinions of the religious majority that are, quite frankly, absurd. Religion has every right to be criticized. Faith is not and should not be a free pass to say "You cannot criticize what I believe because it's insulting." That is exactly why religion has gotten away with what it has for so long - degrading humanity in the most vile and wretched of ways.
But, you accommodate it like a date to the prom. You escort it, kiss it, and, it would seem, hope to put it in the backseat of your car and make love to it. Let's be realistic, though. Someone must be wrong and in order to get to the bottom of who is right and wrong - some things need to be thrown out. I'd say a good place to start would be by criticizing and pointing out the flaws of modern day, literalist religion. We live in the 21st century - not the Dark Ages and not the Bronze Age. Let's be realistic that the notion of God as an entity outside of time and space who just so happens to be a caricature of we human beings and created the Earth some 6,000 years ago is, well, absurd and nothing more. Why should I be stopped from saying that?
I'll say this... We are not shooting up churches. We are not persecuting or confining Christians and people of other religions to death camps. We are not invading countries of differing faiths and we are not taking military action to destroy other people's faiths. That stuff is all the stuff for religion - majority rules, right?? But, you get annoyed and upset when religion is criticized. It's being verbally attacked with words - not with ammunition, rockets, bombs, IED's, vests made of C4, or underwear with Semtex linings. If you have a problem with the way words are written, the way things are satired or criticized than perhaps you should take a deep breath and ignore it instead of pandering to every religious dogmatic nonsense under the sun.
Sure, you can say every great person was truly religious. But, to many extents, so was every horrendously evil person. Hitler had the occult and vague remnants of Christianity, Stalin and Kim Jong Il turned themselves into demi-gods (religious figureheads of State Worship), Mao Zedong did the same. So, if you want to claim credit that religion has brought the "best of the best" than you may as well take it that it also brought forth the "worst of the worst."
Get over the criticisms of religion. They're words and they seem to be far more effective than bombs and bullets - the preferred choice of religions everywhere.
The pen is mightier than the sword. At least the vast majority of Atheists can adhere to that testament instead of defending organizations that have slaughtered and maimed people in the name of "God" for hundreds upon thousands of years. Flying Spaghetti Monster? You betchya!
Ya know...though I didn't agree with all of it...that was pretty damn good post, with some decent points.
For the record...what I want to, "accommodate...like a date to the prom...escort it, kiss it, and, it would seem, hope to put it in the backseat of your car and make love to it"...is TOLERANCE of others and their beliefs. I don't believe in strictly literal interpretations of the Bible, I don't believe in the concept of "No God", and I don't believe in a lot of things other people believe in...BUT I will fight to the last for their RIGHT to be able to BELIEVE and PROCLAIM their belief...without repression OR criticism/insult. When I see that...I do what I know is wrong (I'll cop to the error and won't try to justify it)...and "criticize the criticizer for criticizing". I don't defend "the opinions of the religious"...I defend their right to have and express it...WITHOUT others giving them a hassle for it. Who am I, or you, or anyone else, to insult others' faith? I submit..."the arrogant and uppity sort" are the ones that think they have license to cut down differing beliefs, or others for holding them.
And CERTAINLY, if I am against others merely insulting others differing view...it is obvious what I think about actually causing physical harm to others for having a differing belief. I don't sanction evil, or condone harm.
AGAIN---Peace...Love...Tolerance...Care and Concern for others...and a Generous Heart for Those Less Fortunate than You---If your agenda is something other than THAT, it has room for improvement.
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I don't understand why I don't have more of a following...
