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Old 02-11-2018, 05:44 AM
 
2,827 posts, read 1,681,866 times
Reputation: 987

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryDiogenes
Stuff above
1. Having reasons to doubt is different from reasonable doubt. Jesus Christ, you have time between school and jobs and whatever, pull out a law book. The concept of reasonable doubt, or the idea that a criminal conviction proven to the extent that a reasonable person can have no doubt of such a thing. In general, the prosecution has to prove to point where no reasonable doubt exists, the defense only has to prove that reasonable doubt exists. Not coincidentally, courtroom analogies are super-common in Christianity, Satan is regarded as our accuser, Jesus as our advocate, and God as a judgre. In the context of atheism and theism, the atheist is by all accounts putting the theist on trial for purjury (lying in court), so in order to convict, they must prove falsehood beyond reasonable doubt. The defense must only prove reasonable doubt. That is, a Christian can prove to themselves at least with only "something that I cannot explain by science just happened to me (and it was enough that a reasonable person would not dismiss it as a hallucination, because it wasn't crazy so much as a wonderfiul life-changing experience)." That's it. The atheist on the hand, must declare AND PROVE that God doesn't exist, that souls don't exist, that anima or genius loci spirits don't exist, that reiki isn't real, that faith healing doesn't work, that reincarnation is false, that afterlife doesn't exist, and I suppose I could add a few like not believing in luck or coincidence. By the way, good luck!
2. What is it with you and snowflakes? Also, you didn't really disprove anything?
3. Ad hominem is when you turn the entire logic of the argument into attacking the person. Oh noes, I made fun of you, therefore I must be guilty of ad hominem. Closer to ad hominem would be "With such proofs I have proven X" and the responder says "no it doesn't you stupidhead." It could perhaps be a strawman as I didn't really understand or care about your argument enough to closely pay attention, but it is not a false dichotomy. Atheism is one option, theism is another, pantheism (which I mentioned not you, perhaps youre guilty of false dichotomy?) is a third. This already parts from a false dichotomy as there is no longer a dichotomy. Here's a fourth, atheist yet religious Buddhism and then there is Taoism which is midway btwn theism and atheism. Btw, attacking what fallacies you think I used vs actually offering counterproof is the very DEFINITION of an ad hominem.
4. Uhhhh no I haven't. "In the absence of a deity, stuff falls apart." Ever watch The Neverending Story? When was the last time you saw The Nothing swallow up whole continents? Oh right, never. Matter does decay on its own, and yet, thing can be made like new, they can be made whole. That bike in question can be sprayed with rust remover, and polished like new. The existence of entropy is not an automatic proof of nonexistence of God, and in fact the fact that things exist at all despite entropy means there is something there making stuff. Nice try, but universal entropy in thre absence of counterforce should mean that the universe itself should have collapsed into a singularity before it began, and it may be expanding. I haven't noticed a Heat Death either.
5. You mentioned abiogenesis. I didn't. I said spontaneous generation which also refers to Hawking's idea of how the Big Bang went down. In an actual courtroom when someone admits evidence that is unsolicited, it usually means they're guilty about something... And yes it does. One believes life arises from thin air (so flies inside a jar is a thing). The other believes life arose without a cause. Pretty sure any reasonable person would be like "real big difference there."
6. Oooh, burn! Moving on.
7. Based on your "disproofs" I think it was more a matter of the video poster claiming he was "routed" and it shows him just looking puzzled at the other guy's stupid arguments. But I don't need him to fight my battles. My ally is the Force. No, not serious. But the Holy Spirit/kami/Atman is akin to an all pervasive energy. I have faith in myself and in God. I don't need to quote experts.
8. Hello? I must have mentioned the word syncretic several times in the last four threads. I am not only a Christian. Despite Christians sometimes calling syncretic religiona heresy, I do not have any strong need to believe in the supremacy of Christianity. I accept many of the truths of Buddhism, of Taoism, or Shinto and Hinduism. If truth leads some people to a path other than Christianity, it makes little difference to me. By the way, you haven't told me any anecdotes about your wonderful story about when you knew atheism was right and all these other religions were wrong. Could it be, because no such story exists? That you just decided one day, I'm gonna be an atheist? Because it seems like most of those religion haved a reason for feeling that what they believe is right.

Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 02-11-2018 at 05:52 AM..
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Old 02-11-2018, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Germany
641 posts, read 107,196 times
Reputation: 184
1) I know having reasons to doubt is different from reasonable doubt. And for your god, I have both.

As to perjury, if you read the early Christian fathers, various Christians were making contradictory claims during the 2nd and 3rd century AD, such as Jesus dying before Luke said he was born; or the author of the gospel according to John dying a natural death while being martyred; or that the author of the gospel according to Mark died three times, at three different times, and in three different locations; Eusebius says the gospel according to Matthew was written first and third.

Further, Tertullian at the end of the 2nd century AD saying the gospel according to John ended at chapter 20. I doubt you could claim someone was still writing over 100 years after they died, and get away with it in a court of law.

We even have an eyewitness account, Dionysius of Corinth (died about 171 AD), who complained with great despair over the fact that not only were people rewriting his letters, they were also doing the same to the gospels themselves.

So no, I don't have to prove your god doesn't exist, because if the teachings of Christianity is your evidence for your god, then your evidence is nothing but a pack of lies.

Reasonable doubt, remember?

2. If you don't understand the snowflake reference, how can you claim I "didn't really disprove anything"? Snowflakes are complex to a small degree, yet require not creator. that's why it refutes your cherry picked examples.

3. OK, you can't use or define fallacies correctly, so moving on shortly.

But first this - "as I didn't really understand or care about your argument enough to closely pay attention". You have just admitted you are in NO POSITION WHATSOEVER to make claims about atheism, as you are either ignorant of the actual arguments being made, or not listening.

4. Repeating yourself while ignoring the science. Moving on.

5. I know you didn't mention abiogenesis, you deliberately omitted it. Otherwise it would have spoilt your straw man. Moving on.

6. You don't need experts even though I was responding to your argument from authority?

7. I've given reasons why I'm an atheist. But you admitted you did not understand my arguments, or were not listening. As to religion having a reason for feeling that what they believe is right, it's called teleology. I'd suggest some resources to check out, except you would rather rely on faith.

And I have no problem with that. I do have problems with arguments based on ignorance and not listening to the other side.
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Old 02-12-2018, 12:18 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,149 posts, read 9,254,005 times
Reputation: 2245
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
1. Having reasons to doubt is different from reasonable doubt. Jesus Christ, you have time between school and jobs and whatever, pull out a law book. The concept of reasonable doubt, or the idea that a criminal conviction proven to the extent that a reasonable person can have no doubt of such a thing. In general, the prosecution has to prove to point where no reasonable doubt exists, the defense only has to prove that reasonable doubt exists.
That is not the same thing as 'absolute certainty'...which is what you said was required.

Quote:
The atheist on the hand, must declare AND PROVE that God doesn't exist, that souls don't exist, that anima or genius loci spirits don't exist, that reiki isn't real, that faith healing doesn't work, that reincarnation is false, that afterlife doesn't exist, and I suppose I could add a few like not believing in luck or coincidence. By the way, good luck!
That might be the case if the atheist were to state categorically that those things do not exist but, as you have been told umpteen tines (and yet you are still repeating the same tripe about atheists that you have been told over and over again is not the case) very few if any atheist state categorically that those things do not exist. So yet again - what atheists say is not that those things do not exist but that we see no evidence for their existence and thus have no belief that they do. PLEASE try to understand it because every time you repeat what you have already been told is NOT the case, you look more and more ignorant and foolish.


Quote:
2. What is it with you and snowflakes? Also, you didn't really disprove anything?
3. Ad hominem is when you turn the entire logic of the argument into attacking the person. Oh noes, I made fun of you, therefore I must be guilty of ad hominem. Closer to ad hominem would be "With such proofs I have proven X" and the responder says "no it doesn't you stupidhead."
That depends on whether it's true or not. AS I've already said...it's perfectly appropriate to rate a person's intellect on their beliefs. If someone continues to believe that a 2-inch round peg will fit in a 1-inch square hole no matter how many times it's demonstrated to them that it doesn't fit, it's not inappropriate to call into question their ability to cognitively assess the spatial relationships involved. If someone looks to an example of one of the most obvious forms of injustice and perceives it as an absolute standard of justice (such as punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty), one is not out of bounds to wonder at their mental capacity in assessing the relative validity of concepts built upon such a principle

....just like you would question the mental capacity of someone who, despite the overwhelming evidence, continues to insist that the Earth is flat

Quote:
It could perhaps be a strawman as I didn't really understand or care about your argument enough to closely pay attention,...
There it is folks. That closed-minded attitude that they WE suffer from.

Quote:
One believes life arises from thin air (so flies inside a jar is a thing). The other believes life arose without a cause. Pretty sure any reasonable person would be like "real big difference there."
Once again he repeats something that he THINKS atheists do after's been told time and time again that atheists don't think that.

Quote:
I have faith in myself and in God.
Faith is what you use when the evidence tells you what you don't want to be true. Faith is the last refuge of those who have had their arguments defeated by logic and reason. Faith is simply the practice of ignoring the supportable in favour of a desired belief.
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Old 02-13-2018, 07:49 AM
 
4,022 posts, read 972,930 times
Reputation: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Which is Christian- speak for 'Damn! He hit home there.'
No, it's normal guy talk for "Wow, that guy is upset. He's irrational and is unwilling to have a reasonable conversation but only wants to rip into someone, and I happen to be the one here."
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,149 posts, read 9,254,005 times
Reputation: 2245
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
No, it's normal guy talk for "Wow, that guy is upset. He's irrational and is unwilling to have a reasonable conversation but only wants to rip into someone, ...."
No. It's Christian speak for 'Damn! He hit home there.'


Quote:
...and I happen to be the one here
Poor persecuted Christian!


Last edited by Rafius; 02-14-2018 at 12:48 AM..
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:09 AM
 
4,022 posts, read 972,930 times
Reputation: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
No. It's Christian speak for 'Damn! He hit home there.'


Poor persecuted Christian!
What? You think I'm awesome and wish you could be more like me?
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Old 02-17-2018, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica, CA
15,225 posts, read 4,785,147 times
Reputation: 10500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post

Amazingly funny, true and how the world is so brainwashed..
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Old 02-18-2018, 08:42 AM
Status: "I miss Rod Serling" (set 3 days ago)
 
48,168 posts, read 48,007,584 times
Reputation: 54390
https://scontent.fewr1-4.fna.fbcdn.n...35&oe=5B03E47B
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Old 02-18-2018, 08:57 AM
 
14,335 posts, read 7,129,969 times
Reputation: 1865
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Good'un.
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Old 02-18-2018, 07:50 PM
 
8,064 posts, read 9,076,646 times
Reputation: 10112
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
And the people said..."AMEN!"
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