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Old 07-15-2010, 06:37 PM
 
80 posts, read 75,069 times
Reputation: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/16/wo...audi.html?_r=1

Here are a few more similar stories...As I said they are very common.
Again Saudi is not the calipate. Oppressive kingdom that will show also in their oppressivness twords their men and woman alike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
This is from a baised christain post (not that i have anything against christianity) but again not a well known principled editorial media outlet the likes of BBC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
UAE: Court Sentences Muslim Teenage Gang Rape Victim to 1 Year in Prison | Before It's News (http://beforeitsnews.com/story/80/773/UAE:_Court_Sentences_Muslim_Teenage_Gang_Rape_Vict im_to_1_Year_in_Prison.html - broken link)
UAE is secular state you welcome to look it up in wiki.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Mukhtar Mai in Jamshed Dasti

CBC News - World - How can you possibly talk to a country like Iran?

"The reality is, the ONLY countries where Muslims can really practice their religion freely and without coercion or discrimination is in the West. In Muslim countries, they force you to worship the way the state wants you to worship or you face being attacked. That's why Muslims are always killing Muslims. The Sunni kill Shiites and vice versa. They think anyone who doesn't believe exactly like they do is an infidel and deserves to die.

Worst human rights offenders condemn West (http://www.calgaryherald.com/life/Worst+human+rights+offenders+condemn+West/3175408/story.html - broken link)
Again you seem to go round in this way of reasoning. As I mentioned many times that Iran is not caliphate and also it is heretic shia state which I believe are out of the fold of Islam.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
It is not secular people that are causing problems....It is mainly the religious....Canada is a fairly secular country compared to many others, and I sure would not want to live in a religious state...
Not according to the statistics I posted earlier. It clearly shows that all secular states inhabit the highest in any immoral act catagory and per capita.

I like canada as they seem to give muslim minorites less aggressive and arrogant attitudes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
You seem to want to return to the days of the caliphates, like the Ottoman empire...I think you should crack a history book, and perhaps you will see that those times were not exactly a bed of roses.
From jewish and christian well known historians have lable it the "golden age" at that time for a span of 1300 years on the whole of plant earth.
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:41 PM
 
80 posts, read 75,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
I don't see how secularism is the result of the social ills in America and other countries like Mexico which is 93% christian.

NationMaster - Mexican Religion statistics

It seems that you're just making preconcieved conclusions.
I do not think so I hope . Mexico is again not christendom nor does their social, economical, judiciary, forign policy is based on christianity.

Therefore you statistics of their religiousty is not at all compatiable with the reality on the ground.
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:49 PM
 
80 posts, read 75,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post

Here are a few more similar stories...As I said they are very common.
I am kind of surprised of you in attribute rare cases of being similar and common. I am just concerned for both the people of christendom and caliphate to be sidetracked and not pay attention to these herndous secular social, economical, environmental ills.

Mom Stabs To Death Newborn

FULLERTON -- An 18-year-old woman has been arrested for murder in the death of her newborn daughter.

The mother, 18-year-old Yoselin Torres Tovar, was arrested Tuesday afternoon by Fullerton police, Sgt. Andrew Goodrich of the Fullerton Police Department said.

Police say the teen gave birth around 3 a.m. Sunday in her home, and then told her parents she wasn't feeling well and needed to go to the hospital.

Hospital workers became suspicious when the teen showed signs of recently giving birth, but there was no baby.

Goodrich told KTLA, police found the newborn hidden in teen's bedroom closet.

The young woman managed to keep her pregnancy and the child from her parents.

Investigators say the child was a full term.

The teenager is the second young Fullerton mother in the past two weeks to come under suspicion of killing her newborn baby.

Yanira Valderrama, 20, was arrested April 8 at her parents' apartment on suspicion of drowning her newborn baby boy and hiding his body in a trash can in September.

Authorities are reminding everyone about California's Safe Surrender law, which allows parents to drop off an unwanted newborn at any fire station or hospital within 72 hours of birth with no questions asked.

Baby Stabbed: Newborn in Fullerton Stabbed to Death, Teen Mom Charged - latimes.com

Last edited by 301ouncer; 07-15-2010 at 07:00 PM..
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:50 PM
 
80 posts, read 75,069 times
Reputation: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Look..this argument seems to have two thrusts
Greetings AREQUIPA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
(1) secular society is more 'bad' than religious sociey.
(2) where religious societies turn out to be no better, or worse, blame it on the existence (and supposed influence) of secular society on the religious one.[quote=AREQUIPA;15047595]

Yes You are thinking on the same line as my thinking. Indeed secular system promote all types of harmfull lustfull desires as long as it does not hurt anyone else all in the name of persuit of happiness. But do the secular elite realise is that these lusts grow and grow and it starts to hurt innocent victims:

FOXNews.com - Police: Detroit strip club employed 14-year-old

Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Even if that was true, and there's an argument to be made
(a) that the bad behaviour in the religious society is traceble to the religious beliefs of that society;

(b) that some bad behavious is only seen as bad because so much or our morality (and related law) is dreived from religious society,
I understand your point here but do let me add a vital point. These religious societies are not implementing any divine laws but only some and have no bearing on reducing such immoral acts happening. The majority of the socities around the world are secular except for the odd dictatorship here or there. Even those dictatorships have less of these secular fruits. Even those dictatorships are only doing catch ups to being secular, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
None of that would be any evidence whatsoever that any one of those religions were true. At best it could only be making the VERY debatable point that religion is neccessary to keep society from collapsing.
Which religion/system is true i.e christendom or calipate have little bearing on this as both of these systems have common moral codes between them. Islam is more of an upgrade to these moral codes as well as the judiciary codes.

Last edited by 301ouncer; 07-15-2010 at 07:01 PM..
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
24,089 posts, read 16,745,141 times
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Well you can go back in time and live in the Ottoman Empire if you favor expansion by conquest (Killing) or perhaps you may want to own a few female slaves.....As late as 1908 women slaves were still sold in the Empire.

Hardly an ideal society, compared to some secular societies of today.

Secularism has two distinct meanings:

1- It asserts the freedom of religion, and freedom from religion, within a state that is neutral on matters of belief, and gives no state privileges or subsidies to religions.

2- It refers to a belief that human activities and decisions should be based on evidence and fact, and not superstitious beliefs, however devoutly held, and that policy should be free from religious domination.
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Old 07-15-2010, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
3,594 posts, read 2,672,327 times
Reputation: 2014
The OP is giving nothing but lies and propaganda. They're basic claim is that secularism is the cause of all evil and that it can only lead to darkness and depravity. This is just horse manure though. Secular countries like Denmark, Norway and Japan have very low crime, much lower than the U.S. They're also much more pro science and education and have a much lower rate of teen pregnancy. I know you don't have any idea of these countries are run so I'll tell you. They're based on secular policies etc., not the 'great and glorious' ideology of christianity or Islam. America also has 29000+ attempted suicide attempts and nearly 11000 carried out suicides each year.
Yes 301ouncer, blah blah blah, but your claims about secularism being the cause of crime, evil and general mayhem are unsubstantiated, statistically wrong and based on nothing more than fiction and baseless opinion.

http://www.enotalone.com/article/6909.html (broken link)

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html

http://www.nysun.com/opinion/america...-threat/86382/

All you do is blather on and on about how secularism is why a society has crime etc. although this is not the truth, it's just what you want to believe is true and no amout of repeating yourself is going to change the fact that you're wrong.

Last edited by agnostic soldier; 07-15-2010 at 09:57 PM..
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Old 07-15-2010, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,621 posts, read 6,306,452 times
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Default Secular "system"? What?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 301ouncer View Post
Would like to have a debate on the merits of the secular system that is globally implemented and in operation in most of planet earth eastern and westeren socities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
Q: What "secular SYSTEM"???
Basically cheap made up sites with made up stories without any acadaima researched statistical evidence that such abuse you speaking of happens in both christinity or islam nor that it happened in christendom or the caliphate in past history.

No court rulings, no judicial judgment passed, no such epadamic you are speaking of. Shaby sources.
And your sources are impeccable? I'm frankly amazed at your biases and assertions. They show an amazing lack of real-world experience and knowledge compounded with a built-in assumption of some Islamic cultural superiority.

Which is, of course, horse pucky. Islam has proven to be a primitive desert-tribal social system requiring complete subservience coupled with barbaric punishments that are applied very unjustly, especially towards women, who are considered to be mens' distinct lessers, and are thus treated with complete distain.

We can only hope the growing media coverage of Islam's onging vile chauvinism will, by worldwide outrage, eventually kill off it's acceptance and existence. The way it's practiced now, that can't happen too soon. .

Thanks for listening.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:32 PM
 
Location: London, UK
14,938 posts, read 6,752,735 times
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[quote]=301ouncer;15058634]Greetings AREQUIPA.



(2) where religious societies turn out to be no better, or worse, blame it on the existence (and supposed influence) of secular society on the religious one.[quote=AREQUIPA;15047595[/quote] (This was my post, as it happens)[

You posted
Quote:
Yes You are thinking on the same line as my thinking. Indeed secular system promote all types of harmfull lustfull desires as long as it does not hurt anyone else all in the name of persuit of happiness. But do the secular elite realise is that these lusts grow and grow and it starts to hurt innocent victims:
You must see that the whole argument has revolved around you arguing that situations that are wrong (or at least which you think are wrong) are somehow evidence that secular society won't do as it leads to such things.

FOXNews.com - Police: Detroit strip club employed 14-year-old

Quote:
I understand your point here but do let me add a vital point. These religious societies are not implementing any divine laws but only some and have no bearing on reducing such immoral acts happening. The majority of the socities around the world are secular except for the odd dictatorship here or there. Even those dictatorships have less of these secular fruits. Even those dictatorships are only doing catch ups to being secular, etc.
But any objections to abuses in Islamic countries you dismiss as being the wrong sort of islam, wrong denomination, UAE being a 'secular' society whatever you can possibly mean by that when talking about Islamic states or, in the end to claim that Islamic states are somehow 'not implimenting divine law'.

This is an old claim. If a system comes under criticism as being flawed, the excuse is to say that it is not being applied stringently enough.

I have heard this argument used to excuse the soviet union and the catholic church. It is a false argument as more power only allows more injustice, more corruption and more cover - up.

Iran, to return to our moutons, does not look impressive. It does not come across to us as being the sort of state which the rest of the world could profitably model itself on.

Quote:
Which religion/system is true i.e christendom or calipate have little bearing on this as both of these systems have common moral codes between them. Islam is more of an upgrade to these moral codes as well as the judiciary codes.
Downgrade you mean, for sure. Not only do I say that a secular society will not cause a collapse of civilisation, or that religion is neccessary to stop it collapsing, but I say that Islam is no improvement in society, except for those who seem to desire more and more restriction and control of everyone's life, and I say that picking out some wrongs or other as symptomatic of what's wrong with secularism and passing over other wrongs as not the fault of Islam is simply special pleading.

And that's where we came in.
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Old 07-16-2010, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,621 posts, read 6,306,452 times
Reputation: 3617
Default Darkness? You call knowledge "darkness"?

This one probably falls into the now-predictable proseytizing and, as you've so well put is, AREQUIPA, "Special Pleading". I do love that approach, where our specific examples are always dismissed as not attending to True Islamic principals.

I have asked these trolls several times to point out just where on this planet a true, glorious, peaceful and egalitarian Islam is being practiced. Just as predictably, I have NEVER received an answer. Wonder why not... because there is no such place?

A desert-tribal punishment-based absolutist dogmatic religion does not allow any independent thought, no curious inquiry. The men in it value their camels more than their women! And this should be bowed down to?

To the OP: secularism obviously leads to enlightenment, otherwise why does Islam, and to a lesser extent, Christianity, so vigorously suppress education, science, curiosity and open public discussion?

I would have been dragged into the streets to be stoned to death for even one of my aggressively anti-Islamic posts here! I mean, for all I know, they have already issued a death fatwah, since I've gone waaaayyy past a simple Swedish cartoon outing Allah! They just can't find me out yet is all, but I don't scare easily any more.

Bottom line: they simply do not allow skepticism or quiet discussion about their absolutist dogma. I wonder if they'd allow the screening of the movie 1984?

(BTW, isn't it interesting that Orwellian movie is simply not available on Netflix? Outright suppression by government? Nahhh.... that'd be a conspiracy!)
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Old 07-16-2010, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
4,851 posts, read 2,918,365 times
Reputation: 773
Quote:
Originally Posted by 301ouncer View Post
...Islam is more of an upgrade to these moral codes as well as the judiciary codes.
Perhaps if we chopped off peoples hands off when they steal, punish women when they are raped or stone them when their husbands accuse them of infidelity then we'd be better off wouldn't we?

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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