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Yes...I concurred with those experts collective determination on THAT issue...which was the ONLY issue under consideration.
That does NOT equate to my adopting the logical fallacy..."If experts determine ANYTHING, that proves it"...which is the absurd position you try to argue from.
No dude! That is not the position I am arguing from. It is the position that you are trying to make me argue from in order to stop yourself going under along with the last straw that you are desperately clinging to.
Now old chap. Go take a stroll back to post #113 in this thread. At the very end of that post you will see my reply to Arequipa, to wit...
"I had his number some time ago AQ....when he was on here claiming that because some of the greatest minds in history believed Jesus existed...it must be true."
In post #116 you accused me of 'lying' regarding that statement. I have subsequently shown that that is exactly what you did say , as in....
"Many of the finest EXPERT thinkers OF ALL TIME proclaim Jesus as having existed as a person---This alone, is PROOF to anyone that isn't self deluded."
Having proven what I said in post #113 was not a lie (you have in fact confirmed that as in...)
"Yes...I concurred with those experts collective determination on THAT issue...which was the ONLY issue under consideration."
....you are now attempting a whitewash in saying that I was referring to you believing anything that any any expert says when I'm not. The issue is, as I said in post #113, that you believe that because (according to you) the greatest minds that have ever lived believed that Jesus existed then that is proof to all but the self-deluded... that he did.
Now please hand over that shovel before your hole gets any deeper.
I did...and since the matter was a matter to be assessed through the application of critical thinking and deductive reasoning...those were some of the best possible experts to come to a determination on it...since they are known to be some of the best that ever lived at doing that. I concurred with them.
It does not necessarily follow that I would now have to then consider ANY matter determined by ANY "expert" or "authority" to be "proven". Though that is what was/is being assigned to me...and thus, to anyone else that ever determined a matter to be "proven" based on the conclusion of "experts".
There are three ways to look at it:
1. It is ALWAYS correct "Appeal to Authority".
2. It is NEVER correct to "Appeal to Authority".
3. It is SOMETIMES correct to "Appeal to Authority".
It appears you are arguing that the best choice is #3...#3 is my position on it as well...it is also the position of every other person in the world I have ever dealt with...except one.
But that's cool...it takes all kinds to "make the world go 'round"...and I have found the debate to be, while slightly frustrating...incredibly amusing. HaHa!
As I say, I didn't check back through the posts. I'll leave that to you and your opponent. All I did was point up the parameters for valid apeal to authority and invalid and how to determine it.
Over to you.
Ah yes, I see it was about reciting the greatest minds thinking that Jesus existed. Perhaps so, but did they have the information we have now? Did they even have expertise in that matter, or were they just brought up on the 'Official' church version?
On the face of it, it looks convincing enough. Perhaps it's even understandable that they took it as read.
I'm afraid that I'm getting a bit close to saying that none of those great minds are competent to pronounce on the matter other than those who disagree with it. However, as I have said, no-one has done the work. Even critical books seem to start from an assumption that what in in the Gospels is substantially true. There's a lot of critical consideration, but it is not done overall.
I suppose I'm asking for the argument of these experts so I can see how informed it is.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-10-2010 at 11:27 AM..
I have to say that I haven't looked back into the posts, ...
I urge you and other to do so. It's only from where grule joined the discussion which was around post #758 I think. Read from there and then tell me whether or not he consistently uses the 'argument from authority' to try to prove his case that Jesus existed.
I seriously think that humans like the sound of some words. Fallacious being one of them. It makes them sound intelligent so the more they use it the more intelligent they sound. Therefore, to end the debate is a no no.
I use 'Fallacious' quite a lot, because I use logical rules a lot in looking at arguments. The theists often use fallacies - like your ad hominem above, for instance - so of course I use the term a lot. I use it not because it makes me sound clever - I should hardly need to prove that I am capable of putting a coherent argument together - but because it is so often applicable.
Location: planet octupulous is nearing earths atmosphere
13,620 posts, read 12,687,888 times
Reputation: 20050
Quote:
Originally Posted by detmi7mile
True...but someone could say a talking spider with 100 eyes is controlling all the spiders in the world. There is no proof of it, but would you believe it?
no i would definitely not belive that.!!!! but on the otherhand if the universe is infinite, the odds being in a infinite universe that no matter what you can conseive of is probably happening somewhere in another time or demention. kinda like the cartoons.?? visualy you can make anything happen with computer animation a flea could have sex wth a blue whale.. an ant could kill super man etc. maybe in another denention anything goes.?? if you have ever been in my dreams you would know what i'm talking about. maybe there's a demention like when you are dreaming.
no i would definitely not belive that.!!!! but on the otherhand if the universe is infinite, the odds being in a infinite universe that no matter what you can conseive of is probably happening somewhere in another time or demention. kinda like the cartoons.?? visualy you can make anything happen with computer animation a flea could have sex wth a blue whale.. an ant could kill super man etc. maybe in another denention anything goes.?? if you have ever been in my dreams you would know what i'm talking about. maybe there's a demention like when you are dreaming.
This is all true! But if something doesn't exists in OUR REALITY (like God), why on Earth would we worship it? Why on Earth would we kill for it?
Location: planet octupulous is nearing earths atmosphere
13,620 posts, read 12,687,888 times
Reputation: 20050
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte
This is all true! But if something doesn't exists in OUR REALITY (like God), why on Earth would we worship it? Why on Earth would we kill for it?
it's amazing the power of brainwashing sheeples i bet in some countries in the middle east ,that as soon as a baby exits the womb a qu'ran is the first thing it see's
No dude! That is not the position I am arguing from. It is the position that you are trying to make me argue from in order to stop yourself going under along with the last straw that you are desperately clinging to.
Now old chap. Go take a stroll back to post #113 in this thread. At the very end of that post you will see my reply to Arequipa, to wit...
"I had his number some time ago AQ....when he was on here claiming that because some of the greatest minds in history believed Jesus existed...it must be true."
In post #116 you accused me of 'lying' regarding that statement. I have subsequently shown that that is exactly what you did say , as in....
"Many of the finest EXPERT thinkers OF ALL TIME proclaim Jesus as having existed as a person---This alone, is PROOF to anyone that isn't self deluded."
Having proven what I said in post #113 was not a lie (you have in fact confirmed that as in...)
"Yes...I concurred with those experts collective determination on THAT issue...which was the ONLY issue under consideration."
....you are now attempting a whitewash in saying that I was referring to you believing anything that any any expert says when I'm not. The issue is, as I said in post #113, that you believe that because (according to you) the greatest minds that have ever lived believed that Jesus existed then that is proof to all but the self-deluded... that he did.
Now please hand over that shovel before your hole gets any deeper.
Not a "whitewash"...that is EXACTLY what you said, and argued, at the time.
Now you take it out of context to try to bail you out of your crashing plane.
Let me refresh your memory on your response back then, to my statement you keep quoting. It will definitively PROVE who is telling the truth on this matter. Ohhhhhh Man!...I LOVE this!!!:
GldnRule:
The list of people, and assembly of ultra-deep/ultra-critical thinkers that after their most intense contemplation of the information, came to a positive conclusion, and spoke of Jesus as a breathing, walking, talking, actual person is a veritable "Who's Who" of some of the greatest minds EVER: Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein
Rafius:
I'm sure that if you go back 500 years you would find many "ultra-deep/ultra-critical thinkers" who believed that the Earth was flat and that you would die if you travelled at a speed exceeding 5mph. Guess what! They were wrong. Your claim that because intelligent people believe it, it must be true is a logical fallacy.
Argumentum ad verecundiam fails miserably.
GldnRule:
Lev Tolstoy, Napoleon Bonaparte, Will Durant, Daniel Webster, David Strauss, Kenneth Scott Lattourette, George Bancroft, Lew Wallace, even MOHAMMED! The greatest applicants of every genre of critical thinking and reasoning...physics, math, philosophy, history, politics, military tactics, you name it...nearly ALL conclude Jesus was a real person.
Rafius:
Argumentum ad verecundiam. FAIL.
GldnRule:
Many of the finest EXPERT thinkers OF ALL TIME proclaim Jesus as having existed as a person---This alone, is PROOF to anyone that isn't self deluded.
Rafius:
Argumentum ad verecundiam. FAIL.
We are discussing post #113. The one you said I lied in when I said that you believed that because great minds believed in Jesus then Jesus must have existed. What the hell does all that stuff you just posted have to do with that?
Not a "whitewash"...that is EXACTLY what you said, and argued, at the time.
Now you take it out of context to try to bail you out of your crashing plane.
Let me refresh your memory on your response back then, to my statement you keep quoting. It will definitively PROVE who is telling the truth on this matter. Ohhhhhh Man!...I LOVE this!!!:
GldnRule:
The list of people, and assembly of ultra-deep/ultra-critical thinkers that after their most intense contemplation of the information, came to a positive conclusion, and spoke of Jesus as a breathing, walking, talking, actual person is a veritable "Who's Who" of some of the greatest minds EVER: Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein
Rafius:
I'm sure that if you go back 500 years you would find many "ultra-deep/ultra-critical thinkers" who believed that the Earth was flat and that you would die if you travelled at a speed exceeding 5mph. Guess what! They were wrong. Your claim that because intelligent people believe it, it must be true is a logical fallacy.
Argumentum ad verecundiam fails miserably.
GldnRule:
Lev Tolstoy, Napoleon Bonaparte, Will Durant, Daniel Webster, David Strauss, Kenneth Scott Lattourette, George Bancroft, Lew Wallace, even MOHAMMED! The greatest applicants of every genre of critical thinking and reasoning...physics, math, philosophy, history, politics, military tactics, you name it...nearly ALL conclude Jesus was a real person.
Rafius:
Argumentum ad verecundiam. FAIL.
GldnRule:
Many of the finest EXPERT thinkers OF ALL TIME proclaim Jesus as having existed as a person---This alone, is PROOF to anyone that isn't self deluded.
Rafius:
Argumentum ad verecundiam. FAIL.
Just let it go man. You've been caught, now just admit it and move on...you're making yourself look like a fool.
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if you have ever been in my dreams you would know what i'm talking about.
maybe there's a demention like when you are dreaming.
