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Old 08-07-2010, 03:15 AM
 
Location: Planet Water
815 posts, read 1,541,089 times
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Bible God created nothing. This God (Gods) - parasites in the Universe. They use another's achievements.
One Founder has created slaves (?)
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Old 08-07-2010, 06:13 AM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,627,329 times
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Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
What atheist says Oh my God?...I don't ever say that, and I know of no atheist that does.
There was a girl I used to date that was a staunch Atheist. But I heard her say (sometimes very loudly), "Oh My God", dozens of times in less than an hour on scores of occasions.
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Old 08-07-2010, 06:26 AM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,627,329 times
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
The logical position is that the person making the claim has the burden of proof. It is up to the theist to prove a god, not for the unbeliever to disprove it.
You know AREQUIPA, I have addressed this many times. And your contention is true...all things being equal. But when debating an issue that already has 85-90% in favor of one premise...and only 10-15% in favor of a competing premise...the logical position would be that the small minority has the burden of proving the premise that is so uncommonly held.
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Old 08-07-2010, 09:48 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
Reputation: 5927
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Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
You know AREQUIPA, I have addressed this many times. And your contention is true...all things being equal. But when debating an issue that already has 85-90% in favor of one premise...and only 10-15% in favor of a competing premise...the logical position would be that the small minority has the burden of proving the premise that is so uncommonly held.
I don't know whether this is just illogic or evasion. But let me just set this out once and see whether you grasp it.

'an issue that 85-90% in favor of one premise.'

89-90% WHAT in favor of a premise? Believers? That means nothing as regards the premise.

There may be some question of what kind of premise. If it is a human concensus premise, then the majority vote has clout because that's how democracy works. But even then, it doesn't make the majority right, it only makes their view the more popular one.

If it's a question of religion, (and it is and you know that well) popular opinion is not an issue. Whether religion is credible is judged on the evidence and logic. It is not judged on the numbers and that is a matter of logic. If 99% people in the world believe in one brand of christianity, that STILL would not make it neccessarily true and if you reject that, you are being illogical.

You have argued, I recall,that so many must be right. In fact hardly any of them (I should know) actually understand the evidence, only a vague summary of the dogma and they have variant views of that, too. The public view is irrelevant and poorly informed. Where does the evidence actually point?

Here, of course the 85- 90% (or some majority figure) is in favour of Religion, the Bible, Christ and Biblegod being incorrect. If you want to debate that, do so. But don't try to buy the debate with numbers of adherents. That is a known fallacy and that is not up for debate any more than the earth going round the sun.

Is this clear? Or shall I have to explain it again?
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Old 08-07-2010, 10:06 AM
 
63,566 posts, read 39,855,129 times
Reputation: 7819
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I don't know whether this is just illogic or evasion. But let me just set this out once and see whether you grasp it.

'an issue that 85-90% in favor of one premise.'

89-90% WHAT in favor of a premise? Believers? That means nothing as regards the premise.

There may be some question of what kind of premise. If it is a human concensus premise, then the majority vote has clout because that's how democracy works. But even then, it doesn't make the majority right, it only makes their view the more popular one.

If it's a question of religion, (and it is and you know that well) popular opinion is not an issue. Whether religion is credible is judged on the evidence and logic. It is not judged on the numbers and that is a matter of logic. If 99% people in the world believe in one brand of christianity, that STILL would not make it neccessarily true and if you reject that, you are being illogical.

You have argued, I recall,that so many must be right. In fact hardly any of them (I should know) actually understand the evidence, only a vague summary of the dogma and they have variant views of that, too. The public view is irrelevant and poorly informed. Where does the evidence actually point?

Here, of course the 85- 90% (or some majority figure) is in favour of Religion, the Bible, Christ and Biblegod being incorrect. If you want to debate that, do so. But don't try to buy the debate with numbers of adherents. That is a known fallacy and that is not up for debate any more than the earth going round the sun.

Is this clear? Or shall I have to explain it again?
You bastages simply have to stop this presumption of the default and demanding proof from theists. It is YOU who reject the inscrutable and unexplainable reality of a Creator and controller of everything that we experience as existence . . . in favor of nothing but an irrational "controlled but no controller" "Natural" universe. There is NO provable default position . . . so the majority based on intuition and an inner knowing does have clout in this case. Your inner sense tells you there isn't anything but nothingness and some euphemism you call "Nature" as the source of it all. Our inner sense and our "knowing" tells us that is hogswallup!!! Stop pretending you have the superior position on the inscrutable . . . you do NOT!!! PREMISES are PREMISES . . . NOT fact.
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Old 08-07-2010, 10:13 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You bastages simply have to stop this presumption of the default and demanding proof from theists. It is YOU who reject the inscrutable and unexplainable reality of a Creator and controller of everything that we experience as existence . . . in favor of nothing but an irrational "controlled but no controller" "Natural" universe. There is NO provable default position . . . so the majority based on intuition and an inner knowing does have clout in this case. Your inner sense tells you there isn't anything but nothingness and some euphemism you call "Nature" as the source of it all. Our inner sense and our "knowing" tells us that is hogswallup!!! Stop pretending you have the superior position on the inscrutable . . . you do NOT!!! PREMISES are PREMISES . . . NOT fact.
But if I do that, me dear chap, I'm ignoring the rules of logic..like you theists.
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Old 08-07-2010, 10:19 AM
 
63,566 posts, read 39,855,129 times
Reputation: 7819
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
But if I do that, me dear chap, I'm ignoring the rules of logic..like you theists.
Horsepuckey! Logic is based ENTIRELY on the validity of the base PREMISE. You have NO basis for your PREMISE. Stop pretending you do. Your criticisms and refutations of SPECIFIC religious beliefs ABOUT our Creator are legitimate fodder for your crusades. But on the central issue . . . your so called logic is based on the sand of an unsubstantiated and unsubstantiatable PREMISE! Live with it!
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Old 08-07-2010, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,513 posts, read 37,057,177 times
Reputation: 13985
Bastages...What, do you think that is a "polite" way to call atheists bastards?
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Old 08-07-2010, 10:30 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,582,163 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Horsepuckey! Logic is based ENTIRELY on the validity of the base PREMISE. You have NO basis for your PREMISE. Stop pretending you do. Your criticisms and refutations of SPECIFIC religious beliefs ABOUT our Creator are legitimate fodder for your crusades. But on the central issue . . . your so called logic is based on the sand of an unsubstantiated and unsubstantiatable PREMISE! Live with it!
I am not making a premise. I am not assuming anything. It is the Theists, assuring me that their God theory is True who are making the premise.

Not knowing whether there is a god or not (not even looking at WHICH god or the absurdities of the Particular religions) is the basis of not - believing. It requires no assumptions. Learn the logic.
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Old 08-07-2010, 10:36 AM
 
63,566 posts, read 39,855,129 times
Reputation: 7819
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I am not making a premise. I am not assuming anything. It is the Theists, assuring me that their God theory is True who are making the premise.

Not knowing whether there is a god or not (not even looking at WHICH god or the absurdities of the Particular religions) is the basis of not - believing. It requires no assumptions. Learn the logic.
You are the one in need of education in logic. Every syllogism must proceed from a base PREMISE that is either proved or universally accepted. What is yours?
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