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Old 02-01-2012, 09:43 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,693 posts, read 15,657,508 times
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Was the imploration to 'go forth and be fruitful and multiply?' made before the Fall? I used to wonder if Adam and Eve were even meant to reproduce in Eden, or if God planned them to be the only human beings?
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:47 AM
 
2,771 posts, read 1,136,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
That's one of the most ridiculous pieces of fiction I've ever seen. If you're going to come in this forum and toss such garbage out for people to read, please defend all the statements I marked in bold. No biblical or religion scholar with any self-respect would write such things.
The type of argumentation that the other poster is using is a perfect example of how easily a text can be interpreted to say exactly the opposite of what it plainly says, and then used for ideological purposes. For a long time, the archetype of Cain (as the son of Satan) became a tool of anti-semites who declared that all Jews were the descendants of Cain, and thus the offspring of Satan. This type of weird and offensive reading is what fueled the Christian Identity movements that embraced such farflung claims that white europeans were the "true" Israelites, and spurred Timothy McVeigh - to name one extremist who should be fairly well known for his terrorist attack - to act out his hatred.

If there's any suggestion of a divine being having sex with the woman, it would be Yahweh - and not Satan (Satan as an evil being was a concept that did not even exist in the mind of the author of Genesis, yet). The naming of Seth suggests something mysterious in the area of divine-human sexual intercourse, but I won't go into that too much here.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:07 AM
 
2,771 posts, read 1,136,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Was the imploration to 'go forth and be fruitful and multiply?' made before the Fall? I used to wonder if Adam and Eve were even meant to reproduce in Eden, or if God planned them to be the only human beings?
That was made in Genesis 1 - the first Creative Story. This first Creative Account makes no mention of a Garden, or a serpent, or a "fall", or of anything like that and most experts believe that it was written by a different author. The comman to procreate comes first to the creatures of the air and the sea:
And God blessed them, saying:
Bear fruit and be many and fill the waters in the seas,
and let the fowl by many on earth!
There was setting, there was dawning: fifth-day.
(Genesis 1:22-23, SB)
He then creates the creatures of the earth, culminating in the humans:
God said:
Let us make humankind, in our image, according to our likeness!
Let them have dominion over the flesh of the sea, the fowl of the heavens, animals, all the earth, and all crawling things that crawl about upon the earth!
So God created humankind in his image,
in the image of God did he create it,
male and female he created them.

God blessed them,
God said to them:
Bear fruit and be many and fill the earth
and subdue it!
(Genesis 1:26-28, SB)
God blesses the creatures of the fifth and sixth days and commands them to "be fruitful". Now, does this come before the Garden of Eden story? Technically, if you feel that Genesis is a complete narrative with no doublets, then yes it does. But Genesis contains doublets, with the two Creative Accounts being perfect examples. Genesis 1 is attributed to the Priestly Source, while Genesis 2-3 is attributed to the Yahwist.

The 2nd Creative Account does not contain a specific blessing and exhortation to "be fruitful", though the curse against the woman at least implies that sexual reproduction had been a part of the plan, possibly - for why curse someone to "with pains shall you bear children" if reproduction had not been implied? Anyways, there is much "begetting" after this and the next direct Divine command to "be fruitful" occurs after the Flood, AND importantly - from the very same source (the Priestly source) as the previous one. Notice the similarity of language to the 1st Creative Account:
God spoke to Noah, saying:
Go out of the Ark, you and your wife, your sons and your sons' wives with you.
All living-things that are with you, all flesh - fowl, animals, and all crawling things that crawl about upon the earth,
have them go out with you,
that they may swarm on earth, that they may bear fruit and become many upon the earth....

God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them:
Bear fruit and be many and fill the earth!
(Genesis 8:15-17, 9:1)
After the Flood, we see a "new" Creation, as it were - with the same divine commands as previously. The difference, though, is that God gives humanity the Noahide Covenant - which recognizes their propensity for violence, and adds several things that are related to humanity's violent nature.

In the end - technically, NO - the comman to "be fruitful" has nothing to do with the Garden of Eden story, for it is from two separate traditions that have been woven into one story. Of course, fundamentalists and conservatives will argue endlessly that the linguistic, stylistic and narrative differences are actually one big story, from one big author, and the suggestion of anything else is blasphemy - but it's not. Nowhere does the Bible claim for itself that it was written by one Divine author.


Now, with all that - does that help us in assesing the Yahwist Account of Creation, and it's Garden, and it's fruit?
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jojajn View Post
Many Christians believe that sex is intended, by God, for procreation only. This is why practicing Catholics do not believe in using birth control.

If this is the case, there are only three scenarios possible for Adam and Eve while in the Garden of Eden:

1) They did not have sex in the Garden of Eden because no children were born to them until after they were evicted. Remember, they had to have been the best of health therefore fertility would have been assured.

2) Adam and Eve did have plenty of sex. Therefore, God allowed sex for purposes other than procreation. God did not yet program Adam and Eve to conceive while they were still in the Garden.

3) Adam and Eve had sex, conceived, but were not in the Garden long enough (nine months) for the pregnancy to result in childbirth.

Any thoughts?
I don't believe Adam and Eve had sex while still in the Garden of Eden for two simple reasons: (1) They did not even realize that they were naked until after they'd eaten the forbidden fruit. To me, that implies a kind of sexual naivety. I think that while they obviously had all of the "working parts," their interest in sex was more or less like that of a little child. Someone who doesn't realize that he or his partner is naked would probably not be aware of what it even meant to have sex. (2) The Bible makes no specific mention of their having sex until after they were cast out of the Garden, at which time it says that Adam "knew" Eve. If they'd been having sex all along, it seems odd that this would even be mentioned at that point. Incidentally, I don't think any of this has anything at all to do with the idea that sex was somehow sinful.
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:38 PM
 
9,343 posts, read 15,610,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Pulling from very old memory,what I was taught is that the forbidden fruit that they tasted was sex, not an apple ...
Neither.

It was a fig.
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan View Post
Neither.

It was a fig.
I've always thought it was raspberries. I could never have stayed away from raspberries.
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:02 PM
 
9,343 posts, read 15,610,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
This thread is about "Did Adam and Eve have sex in the Garden" - NOT about how awesome Rabbinic Judaism is, and how utterly misinformed the everyone else is and how they can never, ever possibly have a glimmer of understanding of a pre-Judaic text written by ancient Israelites, such as the various portions of the Book of Genesis.

The story of Adom (Adam) and Chava (Eve) is in the Torah, and only those trained in both the written Torah and the oral Torah (included in the Talmud) are in a position to explain what may or may not have occurred in Gan Eden (Garden in Eden) and what it might or might not mean.


Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
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Last edited by june 7th; 02-05-2012 at 08:57 AM..
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:36 PM
 
Location: State of Relaxation
28,625 posts, read 14,353,291 times
Reputation: 19481
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojajn View Post
Many Christians believe that sex is intended, by God, for procreation only. This is why practicing Catholics do not believe in using birth control.

If this is the case, there are only three scenarios possible for Adam and Eve while in the Garden of Eden:

1) They did not have sex in the Garden of Eden because no children were born to them until after they were evicted. Remember, they had to have been the best of health therefore fertility would have been assured.

2) Adam and Eve did have plenty of sex. Therefore, God allowed sex for purposes other than procreation. God did not yet program Adam and Eve to conceive while they were still in the Garden.

3) Adam and Eve had sex, conceived, but were not in the Garden long enough (nine months) for the pregnancy to result in childbirth.

Any thoughts?
4) Adam and Eve had plenty of sex, but Adam practiced seminal retention, so no pregnancy resulted.

It's interesting--the Catholic Church says sex is only for procreation, but on the other hand, sex in the Catholic Church is a sacrament. Sex is what consummates the marriage. The Church ceremony isn't enough for the marriage to be considered "real". Interesting, no?
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:43 PM
 
Location: FL
1,727 posts, read 897,221 times
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My thoughts are...you are overthinking this.
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:38 PM
 
4,043 posts, read 1,271,575 times
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Of course they did, at least once before God ran them out of that garden.

It is written that they "saw that they were naked" after they sinned. That is saying that they then had sex the first time, and it was after that that God ran them out of there.
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