Is It Possible For Religion and Logic Co-Exist? (genesis, Muslims, God)

[Art R]

Is It Possible For Religion and Logic Co-Exist? NO!

[burdell]

Originally Posted by urbanlemur

Logic tells me that all of this matter called the universe simply couldn't have come from nothing. Even if you take the big bang down to it's most simple and microscopic beginnings, it still suggests that it had to have been created. Can anyone here make something from absolutely nothing, no materials? I doubt it.

I can accept the act of faith in believing that ultimately, somewhere there had to be a start to the universe.

Originally Posted by urbanlemur

Logic tells me that to look at the complexities of the human body, I simply cannot reason that I came from a single-cell amoeba that evolved from some primordial muck that resulted from some big blast of something from nothing.

Here's where you lose me. How does logic explain human embryos having gills at one stage of their development and physically resembling the embryos of many, many other species? How does logic explain the vestigial tail humans possess? I can accept a supernatural hand somewhere in time but to me the scientific evidence that evolution did occur is overwhelming.

[nvxplorer]

On April 1, 2005, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (who would become Pope Benedict XVI just over two weeks later) referred to the Christian religion as the religion of the Logos:

Christianity must always remember that it is the religion of the "Logos." It is faith in the "Creator Spiritus," in the Creator Spirit, from which proceeds everything that exists. Today, this should be precisely its philosophical strength, in so far as the problem is whether the world comes from the irrational, and reason is not, therefore, other than a "sub-product," on occasion even harmful of its development or whether the world comes from reason, and is, as a consequence, its criterion and goal. The Christian faith inclines toward this second thesis, thus having, from the purely philosophical point of view, really good cards to play, despite the fact that many today consider only the first thesis as the only modern and rational one par excellence. However, a reason that springs from the irrational, and that is, in the final analysis, itself irrational, does not constitute a solution for our problems. Only creative reason, which in the crucified God is manifested as love, can really show us the way. In the so necessary dialogue between secularists and Catholics, we Christians must be very careful to remain faithful to this fundamental line: to live a faith that comes from the "Logos," from creative reason, and that, because of this, is also open to all that is truly rational.[2]

I don't necessarily agree with everything the pope says here, but I am impressed by his call to reason, even though he seems to conflate it with emotion (love).

To answer the OP, I believe religion as a philosophy and logic can indeed co-exist. There is nothing illogical about Jesus' message. The Tao, not necessarily a religion, is an example of a belief system grounded in logic. It's when religion goes beyond philosophy to "truth" that certain dogmatically held beliefs become illogical.

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by dorado0359

Did the writers of the ancient religious books intentionally make Religion and Logic incompatible or was it by accident?

Huh? Read St. Thomas Aquinas. You don't get more logical than that. Once you get through St. Thomas Aquinas, try G.K. Chesterton, C.S. Lewis, and Francis Schaeffer. Some of the greatest thinkers of the last 1,000 years were devoutly religious men.

[Alpha8207]

Originally Posted by burdell

Here's where you lose me. How does logic explain human embryos having gills at one stage of their development and physically resembling the embryos of many, many other species? How does logic explain the vestigial tail humans possess? I can accept a supernatural hand somewhere in time but to me the scientific evidence that evolution did occur is overwhelming.

To me, these issues LOGICALLY point to a common Creator.

When you enter into various automotive plants, the automobiles all look fairly similar to a point. Then the variations and different kinds of cars take shape as the process is completed.

All cars have a common creator, man.

All lifeforms have a common Creator, God.

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by burdell
Here's where you lose me. How does logic explain human embryos having gills at one stage of their development and physically resembling the embryos of many, many other species? How does logic explain the vestigial tail humans possess? I can accept a supernatural hand somewhere in time but to me the scientific evidence that evolution did occur is overwhelming.

Originally Posted by Alpha8207

To me, these issues LOGICALLY point to a common Creator.

You are both right.

I feel like I'm watching two people argue over the origin of the statue of David. One of you is saying, "Michelangelo made this! It's obvious!" To which the other responds, "No. Hammers and chisels made this. Look at the evidence. It's obvious!"

You're both right.

[burdell]

Originally Posted by Mark S.

You are both right.

I feel like I'm watching two people argue over the origin of the statue of David. One of you is saying, "Michelangelo made this! It's obvious!" To which the other responds, "No. Hammers and chisels made this. Look at the evidence. It's obvious!"

You're both right.

I was questioning the statement made by someone that: "I simply cannot reason that I came from a single-cell amoeba that evolved from some primordial muck" which seemed to me to be a denial of evolution. I don't question if a supernatural power got the ball rolling.

[stretch00]

I don't want to go too far down the evolution path, as that can easily stray pretty far from the OP, and we have had several threads discussing that recently.

I will point out that there is no evidence that god did it. You may have faith that god did, but there is nothing with god's signature, and nothing that cannot be explained through physical processes.

Again, faith over logic. Bald assertions that you think/feel that god did it, but no proof. Logic would therefore have it that you cannot claim god as a cause.

Again, showing that faith and logic diverge in the matter of religion.

I must thank you guys for making my point for me over and over and over again.

[Alpha8207]

Originally Posted by stretch00

I will point out that there is no evidence that god did it. You may have faith that god did, but there is nothing with god's signature, and nothing that cannot be explained through physical processes.

stretch, since we religious people are so illogical, would you mind too terribly jumping over to one of the evolution/creation threads and explain to me the physical processes that 1) creates something out of nothing and 2) takes that something that was just created and makes it alive?

Anxiously awaiting your superior logic, Alpha

[Trebek]

Originally Posted by dorado0359

Did the writers of the ancient religious books intentionally make Religion and Logic incompatible or was it by accident? It amazes me that in order for a person to believe in God and follow the beliefs of a religion, the person has to abandon logic to do so. Afterall, if God gave man logic and the ability to reason, why would he not allow man to use logic and reason to understand him and his ways? Instead, religion, both Christianity and Islam says that man cannot understand the things and ways of God by logic and understanding. Consequently, when people ask logical questions about their religion, they are treated as outcasts and rejected from the religion.

I don't think Christ would treat you as an outcast