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"In contrast to his adult life, relatively little is known about Hitler's childhood and upbringing, and what we do know sheds only dim light on his religious persuasion. His mother was apparently a pious Catholic, according to Hitler's biographers, but Hitler’s own connection with the church during his early youth was not strong.".........................
"In Mein Kampf (1925) Hitler criticized the Catholic Church in its political form, which he said failed to recognize Germany’s and Europe’s “racial problem”. His Party Charter for the nascent Nazional Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei demanded in Article 24, in contrast to strong Christian control of German’s spiritual life, “complete freedom of religion” (in so far, of course, as that was not a “danger to Germany”) (William Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Arrow, 1991). Indeed, the official “Nazi Party Philosopher”, Alfred Rosenberg, (later to be hanged at Nuremberg), appointed of course with Hitler’s consent, was totally opposed to Christianity. However, Hitler the politician was also aware that to achieve power he would need to win votes from the Catholic Centre Party and could not afford total alienation.".....................
"In conclusion, it is reasonable beyond doubt to say that Hitler was not at any stage of his life a Christian."
"In contrast to his adult life, relatively little is known about Hitler's childhood and upbringing, and what we do know sheds only dim light on his religious persuasion. His mother was apparently a pious Catholic, according to Hitler's biographers, but Hitler’s own connection with the church during his early youth was not strong.".........................
"In Mein Kampf (1925) Hitler criticized the Catholic Church in its political form, which he said failed to recognize Germany’s and Europe’s “racial problem”. His Party Charter for the nascent Nazional Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei demanded in Article 24, in contrast to strong Christian control of German’s spiritual life, “complete freedom of religion” (in so far, of course, as that was not a “danger to Germany”) (William Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Arrow, 1991). Indeed, the official “Nazi Party Philosopher”, Alfred Rosenberg, (later to be hanged at Nuremberg), appointed of course with Hitler’s consent, was totally opposed to Christianity. However, Hitler the politician was also aware that to achieve power he would need to win votes from the Catholic Centre Party and could not afford total alienation.".....................
"In conclusion, it is reasonable beyond doubt to say that Hitler was not at any stage of his life a Christian."
We can give this to them, Okie.
Since we believe in fairy tales, they are allowed to believe in their own LMAO
Yasser Arafat's catholic. Racerman will fetch us links. Can't wait.
I see your statement as trying to change history so the church can feel good about itself. He was a catholic, he was close to the pope, he proclaimed his catholic values, and no special catholic division you label him with will change that.
The value of accepting history as it was, and not as you want it to have been, gives us a chance not to repeat negative actions of the past. I have no desire to make those who supported the atrocities past or present feel good about themselves. I had much rather see them acknowledge their actions and crimes.
As for the Jewish scholar, I think most of us recognize Hitler was after all religions other than his own catholics church. The issues many of my Jewish family have is the support the catholic church gave to Hitler, and the lack of even a verbal restraint related to the atrocities he and in some cases the church itself committed. Nothing you or any scholar can say or do, in an effort to turn the other cheek or be politically correct, will remove that stigma on the catholic church.
If Hitler was following Catholic doctrine, then everyone of us would be killing Jews and wearing swastikas. If Hitler was a God fearing, Catholic doctrine following parishioner, don't you think all the modern day skin heads would be attending Catholic Church to get the necessary education to take over the world. I hate to break it to you, I have never seen a skin head at my church. Mmm. That's odd. They must be getting their education from somewhere else.
If Hitler was following Catholic doctrine, then everyone of us would be killing Jews and wearing swastikas. If Hitler was a God fearing, Catholic doctrine following parishioner, don't you think all the modern day skin heads would be attending Catholic Church to get the necessary education to take over the world. I hate to break it to you, I have never seen a skin head at my church. Mmm. That's odd. They must be getting their education from somewhere else.
2 can play at this no true Scotsman claim.
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
If Catholics were god fearing I think this rule would be imposed more often.
Since we believe in fairy tales, they are allowed to believe in their own LMAO
Yasser Arafat's catholic. Racerman will fetch us links. Can't wait.
Yeah, I'm thinking we should take up a group collection and give it to him as a "Thank You" on behalf of all Catholics here, for illustrating in real-time fashion the lengths to which some people will go in order to try to discredit the Catholic Church.
Why isn't ordinary research and credible scholarship enough?
I thought Sanspeur's faux pas on Leo X yesterday was pretty bad, but that was nothing. An educated person such as cncracer who claims the moral high-ground whenever he talks about the Catholic Church citing JACK CHICK stuff?
Remind me to fact-check ANYTHING that cnc posts going forward if it is about the Roman Catholic Church. For all we know, he is getting his "feed" on the abuse crisis thread in the other forum from the JACK CHICK website.
I think this thread should possibly be closed as it's way off-topic. The person who invited me here may not be pleased with my response otherwise.
The Catholic Church during WWII is an area of great dispute and there is no consensus among historians so far as I know. That said citing Avro Manhattan could imply a bit of a weak case as he was not a historian and was clearly a partisan on this issue. He is more respectable than most anti-Catholic writers, but considering the groups he was in he had an agenda which the Catholic Church was against. Like Wells he got maybe a bit paranoid on the point so is not credible. Granted the idea of using neutral or academic sources is not really accepted by anyone here, most on all sides prefer activist websites of one kind or another, but still even if you find Manhattan valid you should understand why no one else needs to feel the same. Not everyone is an activist anti-Catholic or a Wellsian or whatever.
Still the bringing up of the Croatian Ustashe does have some merit. Nazism itself clearly did not have a Catholic identity even if it's connections to the Catholic Church are a matter of dispute. What's not in dispute is that Nazi eugenics, the euthanasia, violence toward Slavic Catholics, killing of Dutch Catholics, etc clearly doesn't fit them as in any way a Catholic organization. However the Ustashe did, from what I can tell, take up a Catholic identity. I do not know, or at least am not aware, of them engaging in euthanasia or eugenics (although I feel like that's a maybe) or intentionally killing Catholics. And there were a few bishops sympathetic to them who may have helped them out. As I recall one of the ringleaders in doing that, Archbishop Hudal (sp?), was often on the outs with the Vatican and did things without their knowledge.
Still this is not a matter that can be resolved on this forum or in a discussion of Oprah. The main debate in actual academic circles, that I'm aware of, is about the Catholic Church in Germany and about whether the Catholic Church hated Stalin more than Hitler so did not have a side. Nazism being a Catholic movement I don't think is believed in by any mainstream person I'm aware of as the Nazi votes mostly came from Protestant/Lutheran areas and Nazi teachings clearly derive more from scientific racism and folk/occult German nationalism. Ustashe being a separate story to some degree. We're not going to resolve this here, move on.
I think this thread should possibly be closed as it's way off-topic. The person who invited me here may not be pleased with my response otherwise.
The Catholic Church during WWII is an area of great dispute and there is no consensus among historians so far as I know. That said citing Avro Manhattan could imply a bit of a weak case as he was not a historian and was clearly a partisan on this issue. He is more respectable than most anti-Catholic writers, but considering the groups he was in he had an agenda which the Catholic Church was against. Like Wells he got maybe a bit paranoid on the point so is not credible. Granted the idea of using neutral or academic sources is not really accepted by anyone here, most on all sides prefer activist websites of one kind or another, but still even if you find Manhattan valid you should understand why no one else needs to feel the same. Not everyone is an activist anti-Catholic or a Wellsian or whatever.
Still the bringing up of the Croatian Ustashe does have some merit. Nazism itself clearly did not have a Catholic identity even if it's connections to the Catholic Church are a matter of dispute. What's not in dispute is that Nazi eugenics, the euthanasia, violence toward Slavic Catholics, killing of Dutch Catholics, etc clearly doesn't fit them as in any way a Catholic organization. However the Ustashe did, from what I can tell, take up a Catholic identity. I do not know, or at least am not aware, of them engaging in euthanasia or eugenics (although I feel like that's a maybe) or intentionally killing Catholics. And there were a few bishops sympathetic to them who may have helped them out. As I recall one of the ringleaders in doing that, Archbishop Hudal (sp?), was often on the outs with the Vatican and did things without their knowledge.
Still this is not a matter that can be resolved on this forum or in a discussion of Oprah. The main debate in actual academic circles, that I'm aware of, is about the Catholic Church in Germany and about whether the Catholic Church hated Stalin more than Hitler so did not have a side. Nazism being a Catholic movement I don't think is believed in by any mainstream person I'm aware of as the Nazi votes mostly came from Protestant/Lutheran areas and Nazi teachings clearly derive more from scientific racism and folk/occult German nationalism. Ustashe being a separate story to some degree. We're not going to resolve this here, move on.
Thanks Thomas -- the role of the Catholic Church in WWII is indeed a matter of dispute among historians and will likely remain so.
I appreciate your thoughtful and extremely valuable contribution to this discussion.
What's not in dispute is that Nazi eugenics, the euthanasia, violence toward Slavic Catholics, killing of Dutch Catholics, etc clearly doesn't fit them as in any way a Catholic organization.
True. Christianity, particularly Catholicism, was Himmler's pick of the religions' litter for his hideous mind-control experiments. (Trance-Formation-of-America) Even today, Catholics are targeted for Monarch programming.
Montreal, overwhelming Catholic, was home to the CIA’s original mind control research mental health facilities.
I've read, I've forgotten where, that Oprah is a victim of early versions of what today is called Monarch programming. Which makes sense since most handlers are into the occult.
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