The War on Religion (cult, pagan, atheists, about)

[DreamingSpires]

Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar

Many of you people claim that Hitler was an atheist. The thing about "no one is a true christian" also comes from you christians, who trot out that statement whenever a christian does something horrendous in the name of your god. The pat excuse is "oh, he/she wasn't a TRUE CHRISTIAN so you can't blame christianity or us for his/her actions".

Use of that excuse happens so much, including on these boards, that it's become a laughable christian-apologetic meme.

If you want to attribute any and all statements made by other Christians (or those who describe themselves as "Christian") to me personally or bring them up in an internet discussion with me, that's your perogative.

I don't attribute what you or anyone else here says to "all Atheists" or even "most Atheists."

So it appears you and I "play by different rules."

[Nea1]

Originally Posted by DreamingSpires

I guess it's nice for you Nea to have appointed yourself the final arbiter of all things historical. Who ever said Hitler was an "atheist"? It certainly wasn't me. He was a neo-pagan occultist which is the opposite of Christian.

"No one is a true Catholic or Christian?" I don't know what that means, but I guess you think that, so that's nice for you.

No I am not the final arbiter of all things historical. I have asked you repeatedly to post some of your friends published works on the subject so I can get another view point, other than from Christian apologists. All I have read and studied, which is years worth, debate the occult theory to no more than, he may have been he may have been using them for power, just as he did with the Church. Plenty on here, mostly Christians, say he was atheist, I have seen it on christian sites as well. So again, PLEASE post your friends work, or at least links to it so I can see his evidence pointing to his being a member of some occult secret society, because all I have read is that it is a theory, if he has real proof, I want to read it. Because I find conflicting reports as cited below.

http://freethoughtnation.com/index.p...tid=40:general

"In addition, at the same time as he was embracing Catholicism, Hitler was rejecting Paganism, as in this quote:

It seems to me that nothing would be more foolish than to re-establish the worship of Wotan. Our old mythology had ceased to be viable when Christianity implanted itself. Nothing dies unless it is moribund.

Much is made of Hitler's purported mysticism, such as his alleged pursuit of divine items like the Ark of the Covenant and Spear of Longinus/Destiny. Yet, if indeed Hitler was interested in these objects because of their purported supernatural powers, his belief in them would serve entirely to confirm his conviction as a believing Christian! No atheist would believe these absurd tales, and it is unlikely that any real Pagan would find it a life's passion to pursue Judeo-Christian artifacts, since the Pagan world had its own holy relics."

"There is also some dispute about the extent to which Hitler was influenced by paganism or German Neo-Paganism. Many sources are available that identify Germanic pagan influences on Hitler. But I have seen no credible evidence that Hitler was an adherent of Neo-Paganism in the contemporary post-1960 sense of the word, nor have I read anything to indicate that Hitler ever explicitly identified himself as a "Neo-Pagan."

[Mercury Cougar]

Originally Posted by DreamingSpires

If you want to attribute any and all statements made by other Christians (or those who describe themselves as "Christian") to me personally or bring them up in an internet discussion with me, that's your perogative.

I don't attribute what you or anyone else here says to "all Atheists" or even "most Atheists."

So it appears you and I "play by different rules."

Falsely reading between the lines again, I see. I didn't ever say YOU SAID IT. But of course you'll only see persecution in simple statements of fact. Feel like a martyr much? Good on ya, let me know how that works out for you.

[DreamingSpires]

Originally Posted by Nea1

No I am not the final arbiter of all things historical. I have asked you repeatedly to post some of your friends published works on the subject so I can get another view point, other than from Christian apologists. All I have read and studied, which is years worth, debate the occult theory to no more than, he may have been he may have been using them for power, just as he did with the Church. Plenty on here, mostly Christians, say he was atheist, I have seen it on christian sites as well. So again, PLEASE post your friends work, or at least links to it so I can see his evidence pointing to his being a member of some occult secret society, because all I have read is that it is a theory, if he has real proof, I want to read it.

And I have told you that the viewpoint espoused by my friend, that Nazism was a neo-pagan occult movement pushing an anti-monotheistic agenda, is the mainstream view of most historians in this area. You don't need my friend's work to examine this evidence. But since you have studied this already, I can only conclude that you reject this mainstream view for whatever reason.

Since you insist, here are two of many:

The Occult Roots of Nazism by Goodrick-Clarke
Himmler's Crusade by Hale.

Given that you have studied the Holocaust in depth, however, you have probably already read both of them.

As regards Hitler's personal membership in an occult society -- I don't know offhand if it was ever "proven" that he was a member of the Thule society, for example. That Himmler was, however, is beyond dispute. That Hitler turned to them and embraced their ideas and theories, especially in regard to race and history, is accepted by all mainstream scholars in this area that I know of.

Moreover, your characterization of scholars who present views you don't like as "Christian apologists" is one I find troubling. I would never refer to Atheist scholars with whom I disagree as "Atheist apologists" or somesuch.

But I guess you and I play by different rules.

[tgnostic]

You didn't like each other after I did the appraisal of the "implicit leading to explicit" (Spinoza's original idea You KNow)? What. I would like to introduce is the concept of virtue to property ownership.

[DreamingSpires]

Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar

Falsely reading between the lines again, I see. I didn't ever say YOU SAID IT. But of course you'll only see persecution in simple statements of fact. Feel like a martyr much? Good on ya, let me know how that works out for you.

What does something someone else says in a different thread, or even in this thread, have to do with me?

And what does any of this have to do with "persecution" or "martyrdom"?

[Boxcar Overkill]

Originally Posted by DreamingSpires

Moreover, your characterization of scholars who present views you don't like as "Christian apologists" is one I find troubling. I would never refer to Atheist scholars with whom I disagree as "Atheist apologists" or somesuch.

But I guess you and I play by different rules.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[Nea1]

Originally Posted by DreamingSpires

And I have told you that the viewpoint espoused by my friend, that Nazism was a neo-pagan occult movement pushing an anti-monotheistic agenda, is the mainstream view of most historians in this area. You don't need my friend's work to examine this evidence. But since you have studied this already, I can only conclude that you reject this mainstream view for whatever reason.

Since you insist, here are two of many:

The Occult Roots of Nazism by Goodrick-Clarke
Himmler's Crusade by Hale.

As regards Hitler's personal membership in an occult society -- I don't know offhand if it was ever "proven" that he was a member of the Thule society, for example. That Himmler was, however, is beyond dispute. That Hitler turned to them and embraced their ideas and theories, especially in regard to race and history, is accepted by all mainstream scholars in this area that I know of.

Moreover, your characterization of scholars who present views you don't like as "Christian apologists" is one I find troubling. I would never refer to Atheist scholars with whom I disagree as "Atheist apologists" or somesuch.

But I guess you and I play by different rules.

I can post many and have which I know you have not gone over in the least, that disagree with that formal title. What makes your friend, any more right? because it goes with your belief? If it was the mainstream, I would not find so much debate about it between the scholars and historian, except the Christian ones, who readily place that title on him. SInce your friend is Jewish I would love to view their take upon it.
Yes you need to cite your friends work, or at least divulge their name so I can examine their ideas, because just because they are of that mindset doesn't make it the up most truth. You seem to believe that it is a Formal title for Hitler, he was an occultist, BUT there is so much conflicting theories and ideas as I posted above and through this thread I don't think you can put that label on him and call it a fact. Most atheists I have had conversations with, look at things with open eyes, they don't have the " I must prove them wrong" agenda. I play with honest rules, if my view point can be changed I will change it, I have no issue with that.

[DreamingSpires]

Originally Posted by boxcar overkill

i don't think that word means what you think it means.

prepare to die!!!

ah hah hah!!!!!

Why won't my computer allow me to format caps when I need them?

[DreamingSpires]

Originally Posted by Nea1

I can post many and have which I know you have not gone over in the least, that disagree with that formal title. What makes your friend, any more right? because it goes with your belief? If it was the mainstream, I would not find so much debate about it between the scholars and historian, except the Christian ones, who readily place that title on him. SInce your friend is Jewish I would love to view their take upon it.
Yes you need to cite your friends work, or at least divulge their name so I can examine their ideas, because just because they are of that mindset doesn't make it the up most truth. You seem to believe that it is a Formal title for Hitler, he was an occultist, BUT there is so much conflicting theories and ideas as I posted above and through this thread I don't think you can put that label on him and call it a fact. Most atheists I have had conversations with, look at things with open eyes, they don't have the " I must prove them wrong" agenda. I play with honest rules, if my view point can be changed I will change it, I have no issue with that.

Nea, I don't "need" to do anything. If you want to believe Hitler was a "Christian" go ahead. Other people here like to say he was a "Catholic." Fine. Believe what you want to believe.

I've probably posted this link half a dozen times at this forum, but just for the record, here is one Jew who disagrees with you about Hitler. There are others:

The Rainbow Swastika by Hannah Newman