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Old 09-18-2010, 10:47 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 14,036,003 times
Reputation: 6468

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
I didnt say they were instrumental, I said they helped and had a part in
I'd agree to this part. Many Catholics played a role. Although usually it was more lapsed Catholics as Catholicism was very clearly against euthanasia and eugenics, two things Nazis clearly believed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
which in fact they did as was the Pope and many catholic, leaders which is well documented
I find this a bit harder to credit. I think the main accusation I've heard is that the Popes were acquiescent, or disinterested, when they should have been more clearly against. Pope Pius XI was the Pope during the period when the Nazis took over and I'm not sure how he played any role in the rise of Nazism. The only thing I can think of maybe relates to the German Center Party, but I'd need to know more what you're thinking. Mostly Pius XI was pretty strongly against Nazism, even doing in an encyclical in German that criticized it.

I don't think Germany was even a majority Catholic nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
if anyone even took the time to educate themselves on it they would see that. I did, so did many I have spoken to, who are authorities on the matter. But I know for many it is easy to turn a blind eye.
I think I'm fairly educated on this matter, but perhaps I could learn more.

 
Old 09-18-2010, 10:52 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 14,036,003 times
Reputation: 6468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar View Post
Many of you people claim that Hitler was an atheist
That's kind of a vague generalization. Yeah sure "many people" have said that, but has anyone here really said that? When was the last time you heard that at R&P? (I once indicated Mussolini was an atheist, but I was basing that on evidence even many atheists seem to accept and I think I hedged later.) I think Hitler's religious beliefs are somewhat hard to determine. The man was about image and a cult of personality. Peeling back the layers to find out what his religious views are is kind of tricky. The closest I can determine is that he was a lapsed Catholic drawn to some occult and Protestant ideas.
 
Old 09-18-2010, 10:59 AM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,257,301 times
Reputation: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
That's kind of a vague generalization. Yeah sure "many people" have said that, but has anyone here really said that? When was the last time you heard that at R&P? (I once indicated Mussolini was an atheist, but I was basing that on evidence even many atheists seem to accept and I think I hedged later.) I think Hitler's religious beliefs are somewhat hard to determine. The man was about image and a cult of personality. Peeling back the layers to find out what his religious views are is kind of tricky. The closest I can determine is that he was a lapsed Catholic drawn to some occult and Protestant ideas.
You bring up a legitimate point in that it's somewhat "hard to pin down" his exact belief system. My understanding is that Himmler, Goering, Bormann, Rosenberg et al intended to destroy monotheism and replace it with their own version of occultism which drew from various esoteric sources, both Eastern and Western. This is why I always refer to the Nazis as "neo-pagan occultists" although I suppose it is also accurate to refer to them as gnostics. So in a sense, they wanted to start their own "occult cult" and impose it as a national religion on Germany--and eventually throughout all of Europe.
 
Old 09-18-2010, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Colorado
10,010 posts, read 12,245,207 times
Reputation: 2031
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
Nea, I don't "need" to do anything. If you want to believe Hitler was a "Christian" go ahead. Other people here like to say he was a "Catholic." Fine. Believe what you want to believe.

I've probably posted this link half a dozen times at this forum, but just for the record, here is one Jew who disagrees with you about Hitler. There are others:

The Rainbow Swastika by Hannah Newman
I believe he believed in a god, I know he was against organized religion and had his own thoughts and views on Jesus.

Have you read, all the other historians and scholars that dont follow " the mainstream". The ones that have gone beyond the widely known? And no you dont have to, but I am really beginning to wonder why you have a problem with posting their information. As to your link, i found quite a bit of people claiming she is off the wall.

[mythfolk] Rainbow Swastika? How not to study the "Counter-Enlightenment

I found this on another site.

"One must distinguish between Hitler and his cronies. Hitler himself was an opportunist who would use anything at hand, but he was not an occultist. I am convinced of that from reading his writings, there's just no occultism there. Himmler and Hess were occultists, and Hitler let them play that game to the hilt up until Hess flew the coop to England. Then Hitler purged most of the Nazi occultists."
 
Old 09-18-2010, 11:07 AM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,257,301 times
Reputation: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
I believe he believed in a god, I know he was against organized religion and had his own thoughts and views on Jesus.

Have you read, all the other historians and scholars that dont follow " the mainstream". The ones that have gone beyond the widely known? And no you dont have to, but I am really beginning to wonder why you have a problem with posting their information. As to your link, i found quite a bit of people claiming she is off the wall.

[mythfolk] Rainbow Swastika? How not to study the "Counter-Enlightenment

I found this on another site.

"One must distinguish between Hitler and his cronies. Hitler himself was an opportunist who would use anything at hand, but he was not an occultist. I am convinced of that from reading his writings, there's just no occultism there. Himmler and Hess were occultists, and Hitler let them play that game to the hilt up until Hess flew the coop to England. Then Hitler purged most of the Nazi occultists."
So what if you found people who think Hannah Newman is "off the wall?" What does that prove? Nothing, apart from the fact that some people disagree with her.

As regards what you perceive as a so-called "problem" with what sources I post and don't post, I am not here to please you or do your research for you. I took the time to post the link to Hannah Newman's book. Unless you are a speedreader, you haven't bothered to read it. Perhaps you will some day.

Have I read "all the other historians?" Please post a list of every single book you consider to comprise "all the other historians" and I will then tell you what I have and have not read. Not that it will prove anything one way or another.
 
Old 09-18-2010, 11:09 AM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,257,301 times
Reputation: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
I believe he believed in a god, I know he was against organized religion and had his own thoughts and views on Jesus.

Have you read, all the other historians and scholars that dont follow " the mainstream". The ones that have gone beyond the widely known? And no you dont have to, but I am really beginning to wonder why you have a problem with posting their information. As to your link, i found quite a bit of people claiming she is off the wall.

[mythfolk] Rainbow Swastika? How not to study the "Counter-Enlightenment

I found this on another site.

"One must distinguish between Hitler and his cronies. Hitler himself was an opportunist who would use anything at hand, but he was not an occultist. I am convinced of that from reading his writings, there's just no occultism there. Himmler and Hess were occultists, and Hitler let them play that game to the hilt up until Hess flew the coop to England. Then Hitler purged most of the Nazi occultists."


What basis do you have for claiming that this writer's opinion is any more credible than Hannah Newman's or anyone else's?
 
Old 09-18-2010, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Colorado
10,010 posts, read 12,245,207 times
Reputation: 2031
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
So what if you found people who think Hannah Newman is "off the wall?" What does that prove? Nothing, apart from the fact that some people disagree with her.

As regards your so-called problem with what sources I post and don't post, I am not here to please you or do your research for you. I took the time to post the link to Hannah Newman's book. Unless you are a speedreader, you haven't bothered to read it. Perhaps you will some day.

Have I read "all the other historians?" Please post a list of every single book you consider to comprise "all the other historians" and I will then tell you what I have and have not read. Not that it will prove anything one way or another.
It has just occurred to me that you wont accept anything other than the new age, occultist view of Hitler. You didn't read the link I posted with the issues about her and her book as well as other books or any of the others that I posted, yet chastise me for not reading yours. And yes actually I am a speed reader. I am not into conspiracy theories. You claim it is a fact, yet you refuse to post the links to their work where it shows it is a fact. You have told me I am wrong, and claim what I post with actual links to the information is wrong, but give nothing but this new age mumbo jumbo, which yes I have read others, as evidence.
 
Old 09-18-2010, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Colorado
10,010 posts, read 12,245,207 times
Reputation: 2031
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
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What basis do you have for claiming that this writer's opinion is any more credible than Hannah Newman's or anyone else's?
Oh based on the fact their was more than one, that is just the one I posted. What basis do you have to claim it as fact?
 
Old 09-18-2010, 11:22 AM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,257,301 times
Reputation: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
It has just occurred to me that you wont accept anything other than the new age, occultist view of Hitler. You didn't read the link I posted with the issues about her and her book as well as other books or any of the others that I posted, yet chastise me for not reading yours. And yes actually I am a speed reader. I am not into conspiracy theories. You claim it is a fact, yet you refuse to post the links to their work where it shows it is a fact. You have told me I am wrong, and claim what I post with actual links to the information is wrong, but give nothing but this new age mumbo jumbo, which yes I have read others, as evidence.
Nea,

I don't know what your definition is of "fact." I don't know what would satisfy you in terms of a link that "proves" the Nazis were neo-pagan occultists.
At the end of the day, most historians are theorists. I don't think you can "prove" a historical theory in the same way as you can "prove" 2 + 2 = 4.

I have given you a link to scholarship that supports the view I share and came to over a period of much study. If you think my view and the work of a scholar as fine as Hannah Newman is "mumbo jumbo," and that writings that that support your view that Hitler was a Christian are "factual evidence" superior to the work I cite, what more can I say?

Like I said before, some people say the Holocaust never happened and run big Middle-Eastern countries. Who am I to tell you, or them, or anyone, what to believe?
 
Old 09-18-2010, 11:25 AM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,257,301 times
Reputation: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
Oh based on the fact their was more than one, that is just the one I posted. What basis do you have to claim it as fact?
So are you saying that numbers prove something? If you find twenty skinhead websites that claim that white Aryans are superior to blacks, Jews, Arabs, and Italians, do you think that proves the assertion to be valid and credible?
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