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Old 07-01-2007, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Northern California
1,587 posts, read 2,680,518 times
Reputation: 509
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
The OP asked if the works of Ghandi weren't 'good' because they weren't done with christ? That generous well intentioned works mean nothing because the doer didn't happen to be christian? What do you think specifically regarding this question?
I think that Ghandi's works are good, with or without Christ...BUT they are not good enough to give Ghandi entrance into heaven if he did not do so having accepted Christ as his Savior.
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Old 07-01-2007, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Northern California
1,587 posts, read 2,680,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beth ann View Post
No, it doesn't. Catholics have a different view of salvation. We don't believe in the one-time "being saved" as an assurance to heaven. We don't claim to know who's in heaven, hell or purgatory (without proof, that is....the cannonization process, ie proof for saints, is very extensive). We recognize value in how one lives their life.

Although catholics believe there is no salvation outside of Christ, we also believe that all religions have some truth, even though we believe the catholic faith has the "fullness" of the truth. We also believe God looks to one's heart.

If Ghandi, as a devout Hindu, followed his heart completey and sincerely...who practiced and lived an exemplary life....a heroic life....while all the time sincerely seeking the truth and genuinely believing he had the truth, and lived his life according to those principles....then his salvation is through baptism of desire/will. His will and desire was that to seek ultimate Love, Truth and Peace...which is God.

Catholic doctrine states there are 3 vehicles of baptism:

1) by water (traditional way)
2) by blood (martyrs)
3) by will / desire

I have a comical vision of Ghandi approaching the "pearly gates"....St. Peter tells him "ya know....the truth is that Jesus is the Son of God....Christianity was the way to go". I can't imagine Ghandi saying "that's a bunch of baloney...I was right and you're wrong"....I can only imagine Ghandi, in pure humility, accepting this saying, "truly this is the Son of God", and wanting to enter into eternal happiness.

Just my thought....
Interesting...do Catholics follow the teachings of the Bible? Because according to it the only way to heaven is through Christ. Period.
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Old 07-01-2007, 11:20 AM
 
7,462 posts, read 6,948,401 times
Reputation: 2833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virote View Post
Is it a common christian belief that the works of Ghandi weren't 'good' because they weren't done with christ? That generous well intentioned works mean nothing because the doer didn't happen to be christian?

I'm sorry, but I find that arrogant coming from a preacher who's life works will probably never equal what Ghandi and other non-christians have accomplished for the world, but I held my tongue then for the sake of the friend who'd brought me to hear the sermon.

But, I just have to know. Surely, you don't think like him?
HUH!? For heaven sake, Ghandi preached compassion and nonviolence!!!!! Who in the world could take issue with that!?!?!?
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Old 07-01-2007, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,584 posts, read 8,515,639 times
Reputation: 3951
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
HUH!? For heaven sake, Ghandi preached compassion and nonviolence!!!!! Who in the world could take issue with that!?!?!?
Well those crazy Christians would. OK, here's the basis, in my opinion, of the christian argument. The fact is that if people just did good deeds in their life to get them into heaven than there would be no need for Jesus, the Apostles, or any other biblical belief. There would simply be just a need to do good deeds. For a Christian to say that good deeds will simply gain your entry into heaven then that could effectively destroy the very principles of their religious organization. For them, they have to preach that Jesus is the way or they have no principle of faith. The problem as I said with this is that they play "spiritual tag" with people. They tell them about all the glories of god and how to find Jesus and blah blah blah but then they lay it on them that that is the only "true" way to get into heaven. Now, the person is stuck in a bit of a conundrum. Now they are informed of this "decision" that they are being forced to make. Accept Jesus as a savior, or because I am now aware of it, deny it and go to hell. This is an effective way to convert people who are border line and don't know which way to swing.

Think of it like this. You have a one man election. You either choose to vote for him or not. You don't know a whole lot about his political agenda except that if you don't vote for him you will be exiled. However, no one has ever seen someone get exiled for simply not voting. But, members of his party, are quick to spread the word of this infallible leader. As long as they tell you about the upcoming election than you have no excuse not to vote. They stretch to all areas of the land trying to let people know there is an election coming up. Those that do not vote will be exiled. Those who do vote will live in peace and prosperity for the rest of their lives. It is not fitting to not tell people about the election because then people could live in peace and prosperity because they had no prior knowledge of the election and it just wouldn't be fair to exile someone for the lack of knowledge.

There are also people who choose not to vote but are avid supporters of everything this particulare candidate stands for. They show, through their actions, the wonderful end results of this candidates political agenda but they were brought up in a completely different society and by parents who did not believe in voting. The political candidate is in a bit of a hard spot himself because this person stands so strongly for what he is trying to convery to the people and in the same ideology and manner except he just won't vote. What should the leader do? And which one is truly the evil one? The one who is forcing the vote with a punishment of exile for not voting, or the one who is not voting but following the rules?
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Old 07-01-2007, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,039 posts, read 14,814,472 times
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Excellent post both Beth Ann and Trebek above !
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Old 07-01-2007, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Maine
8,284 posts, read 10,746,558 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim View Post
Interesting...do Catholics follow the teachings of the Bible? Because according to it the only way to heaven is through Christ. Period.
Then how did Moses and Elijah make it to heaven? They died hundreds of years before Christ was born.
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Old 07-01-2007, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
2,181 posts, read 3,727,193 times
Reputation: 789
Quote:
Originally Posted by beth ann View Post
No, it doesn't. Catholics have a different view of salvation. We don't believe in the one-time "being saved" as an assurance to heaven. We don't claim to know who's in heaven, hell or purgatory (without proof, that is....the cannonization process, ie proof for saints, is very extensive). We recognize value in how one lives their life.

Although catholics believe there is no salvation outside of Christ, we also believe that all religions have some truth, even though we believe the catholic faith has the "fullness" of the truth. We also believe God looks to one's heart.

If Ghandi, as a devout Hindu, followed his heart completey and sincerely...who practiced and lived an exemplary life....a heroic life....while all the time sincerely seeking the truth and genuinely believing he had the truth, and lived his life according to those principles....then his salvation is through baptism of desire/will. His will and desire was that to seek ultimate Love, Truth and Peace...which is God.

Catholic doctrine states there are 3 vehicles of baptism:

1) by water (traditional way)
2) by blood (martyrs)
3) by will / desire

I have a comical vision of Ghandi approaching the "pearly gates"....St. Peter tells him "ya know....the truth is that Jesus is the Son of God....Christianity was the way to go". I can't imagine Ghandi saying "that's a bunch of baloney...I was right and you're wrong"....I can only imagine Ghandi, in pure humility, accepting this saying, "truly this is the Son of God", and wanting to enter into eternal happiness.

Just my thought....
Beth-Ann, I keep getting rejected everytime I want to rep you. I have been spreading it around to other people, so this is getting a bit ridiculous. Anyway, once again....kudos. You are such an inspiration. The reps are coming as soon as I can do it again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim View Post
I think that Ghandi's works are good, with or without Christ...BUT they are not good enough to give Ghandi entrance into heaven if he did not do so having accepted Christ as his Savior.
May I presume you have done even HALF of the good works that Ghandi did? I mean, isn't a predominant Protestant believe the idea that good works will flow from having a relationship with Christ? Have you actually sold all that you own (as the Bible tells us), given the proceeds to the poor, sick, and needy, and followed Christ, who had no pillow upon which to lay His head? Have you truly seen a homeless person on the street, taken them to the nearest hotel and paid for their room and food, and given them the clothes off your back? Have you indeed put everything you have in your pocket/purse into the church offering plate/box/bag, the way the poor widow did when Jesus saw her putting in her only two coins?

Truly, have you examined what good works are emulating from your relationship with Jesus? Or have you only contributed to the church's building fund so they can add another multi-million dollar combination gym/coffeebar, bookstore, lake with a fountain, and a new sound system to the church?

Not that I'm judging.......

I know I'm a pitiful person when it comes to the good works issuing forth in my life.
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Old 07-01-2007, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Demenza, RUSH Land
267 posts, read 351,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
Sorry, Virote, I believe I had my posts mixed up..It is not my opinion that the works of Ghandi don't count. He was a good person, in my opinion and his works did mean something..IMO, Ghandi's good works will mean something on the day of judgement. IMO our biggest problem in Christianity are the few who have this superiority complex and think they have all the answers and the right to judge. Jeremiah17:10 says "I, the Lord, search the heart. I test the mind, even to give everyman according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings."
Alright. Thank you. Good to hear.
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Old 07-01-2007, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Northern California
1,587 posts, read 2,680,518 times
Reputation: 509
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCRob View Post
Beth-Ann, I keep getting rejected everytime I want to rep you. I have been spreading it around to other people, so this is getting a bit ridiculous. Anyway, once again....kudos. You are such an inspiration. The reps are coming as soon as I can do it again!



May I presume you have done even HALF of the good works that Ghandi did? I mean, isn't a predominant Protestant believe the idea that good works will flow from having a relationship with Christ? Have you actually sold all that you own (as the Bible tells us), given the proceeds to the poor, sick, and needy, and followed Christ, who had no pillow upon which to lay His head? Have you truly seen a homeless person on the street, taken them to the nearest hotel and paid for their room and food, and given them the clothes off your back? Have you indeed put everything you have in your pocket/purse into the church offering plate/box/bag, the way the poor widow did when Jesus saw her putting in her only two coins?

Truly, have you examined what good works are emulating from your relationship with Jesus? Or have you only contributed to the church's building fund so they can add another multi-million dollar combination gym/coffeebar, bookstore, lake with a fountain, and a new sound system to the church?

Not that I'm judging.......

I know I'm a pitiful person when it comes to the good works issuing forth in my life.

Can you please quote to me the verse that says I must sell all I own? I think that you are judging someone who you have no idea what "works" I have or have not done. I have helped some homeless and paid for a hotel, given them food and clothes...and more then that. Today they are off the street and attending church! That was a year ago today. Today, I make many sacrifices...am I homeless? No, but I will tell you that in comparrison to most people would be shocked how we live so we can be on one income and homeschool our kids, something we feel personally led to do. That includes leaving all we know and all our family to move to Texas where there is a better job waiting. You have no idea and should not judge! We sponser children all across the world who are starving, and we contribute to mission work as well not cuz we have "extra" money...this is a financial stretch for us. This is all good but it won't get me in heaven, only my acceptance of Christ as Savior. The church doesn't say join or go to hell...at least not my church. It makes known the offer of freedom in Christ, the offer of everlasting life. I've never heard of someone saying accept him or go to hell...but maybe that happens at some churches.
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Old 07-01-2007, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Plano, Texas
8,640 posts, read 14,425,773 times
Reputation: 21128
I don't know, guys... it just seems like to me we are arguing different points here. I don't know exactly how to articulate this, but it just seems to me that on the one hand we are arguing whether Gandhi works counted for anything. And on the other about salvation. I think this is 2 different arguments that are being mixed up. The only way I know how to express it is to say that personally I think a person can do many good works and of course, they count for something, especially to the individuals on the receiving end of them. And I think Jesus would certainly laud people doing good works and helping the weak and less fortunate. He was all about that. But on the other hand, I think, as jazzed has stated very well IMO, salvation is not about doing good works.
It's in Jesus, alone. At, least that's what we believe as Christians. Again, I just think this is 2 different arguments if you know what I mean.
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