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Old 07-03-2007, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Northern California
1,587 posts, read 2,606,363 times
Reputation: 508
Jeff re-read my post...I just edited it.

And just so you know, I enjoy these debates and it is not personal in any way. We love God, that's what counts!
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Old 07-03-2007, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 40,222 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim View Post
Jeff, you said:
But this, I think, is the crux of the matter: if Hell is real, did Jesus fail in His mission? He said, “I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world” (John 12:47). If you ignore everything else I've written here, then address this last one...at least in your own heart!

He came to save the world. He did not come to judge the world, he (Jesus) came to save it! From what? From hell...from the eternal punishment of it. That is why he came! But he will judge the world even if that is not the reason he came.

Revelation 20:10
12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.


John 5:22
22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son

How did he save the world?
1 John 2:1-2
1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.
What you are saying here is self-contradictory. Jesus either saved the whole world, or He did not. The Bible doesn't say He came to give the world the opportunity to be saved...it says He came to save!

You state that Jesus came to save the sinner from his destination of everlasting Hell. Not exactly true! Hell was never a place that the Jews were hoping to be saved from, since they didn’t even believe in it! But they did need to be saved from their sins and consequences of them; namely death. Jesus came as the Anointed One to fulfill all of God’s plan for the earth—that through Him might come the salvation, deliverance of sin, peace, kingdom of God and all that God had promised through the Old Testament scriptures.

If Hell is real, how can the Scriptures speak of the gathering of all things into Christ? (Eph. 1:10)

If Hell is real, how can all things be subdued unto Christ? (1 Corinthians 15:28, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 2:8).
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Old 07-03-2007, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 40,222 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim View Post
Jeff re-read my post...I just edited it.

And just so you know, I enjoy these debates and it is not personal in any way. We love God, that's what counts!
Me too! Perfect!
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Old 07-03-2007, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 40,222 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay View Post
Well said, jazzed. And I would just add that Jesus did not FAIL in His mission, Jeff. He came to offer the gift of eternal life and give sinful man the option to choose life and not death (and Hell.) He succeeded in His mission to do this even if NO ONE accepted Him.
kay, ya know I love ya, but this not what the Bible says! It does not say that he came to offer an option. It says He came to. save. the. world!
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Old 07-03-2007, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Plano, Texas
8,640 posts, read 13,973,241 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
Kay, thanks for grasping for SOMETHING to agree with me on, LOL.

Again, responding to jazz and AAA, God's wrath and justice do not demand atrocities that would make the Holocaust look like a day at Disneyland. Finite crimes do not demand an infinate punishment. To say that it does is simply to twist God's word to fit the doctrines of men.

Yet again, I ask... if Hell is real, did Jesus fail in His mission? He said, “I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world” (John 12:47). Again, if you ignore everything else I've written here, then address this last one...at least in your own heart! And no "Yes, but..."'s!

And kay...I find your post about what God shared with you very telling. God basically said he wouldn't make you more merciful than Himself, yes? And you were worried about hell?
Regardless, I see what you are saying. This issue is one that burns in my heart and is hard to let go. Yet lately I feel that God is saying, basically, that I know the truth, and that God has allowed for some to believe differently, for various reasons, and to not get hung up on the bigger issues, but instead to concentrate on serving Him to the best of my knowledge and understanding!
Yes, I actually considered as I was posting this that you might take it that way. God has made clear in His Word that Hell exists and there are no second chances IMO. I think sometimes we try to make it say something else because we don't want it to be this way. I think God was simply speaking to me about the absurdity of ME questioning HIM about His mercy. I don't think He was in anyway negating the reality of Hell.
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Old 07-03-2007, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Northern California
1,587 posts, read 2,606,363 times
Reputation: 508
How did he save the world?
1 John 2:1-2
1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.

Jesus did not fail in His mission to save the world. His dealth on the cross coverd all sins...yet He allows us to choose Him or reject Him and that sacrifice
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Old 07-03-2007, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 40,222 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay View Post
Yes, I actually considered as I was posting this that you might take it that way. God has made clear in His Word that Hell exists and there are no second chances IMO. I think sometimes we try to make it say something else because we don't want it to be this way. I think God was simply speaking to me about the absurdity of ME questioning HIM about His mercy. I don't think He was in anyway negating the reality of Hell.
Well, who am I to question a conversation between yourself and God?

But again, I refer to my previous questions and statement. Hell as we have been taught is a pagan concept, plain and simple. It's as if all the scriptures contradicting the hell doctrine are completely ignored! Or, re-written to conform to the doctrines of men...

“For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men." (Lam 3:31-33)

Now show me a scripture that contradicts this one. We could all go back and forth. But something must be off regarding the doctrine of hell...or how do you explain away scriptures like the one above?
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Old 07-03-2007, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 40,222 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzedforhim View Post
How did he save the world?
1 John 2:1-2
1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.

Jesus did not fail in His mission to save the world. His dealth on the cross coverd all sins...yet He allows us to choose Him or reject Him and that sacrifice
If the majority of mankind is going to burn in hell for all of eternity, forever separated from their Creator, then how in the world to you conclude that Jesus fulfilled His mission to save the world? Again, saving the world does not mean creating an opportunity for getting saved, but actually saving!
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Old 07-03-2007, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Plano, Texas
8,640 posts, read 13,973,241 times
Reputation: 21111
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
kay, ya know I love ya, but this not what the Bible says! It does not say that he came to offer an option. It says He came to. save. the. world!
And, jeff, ya know I love ya too, but the Word also says,

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."
John 3:16
NASB

and John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not judged, he that believes not has been judged already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." NASB

A clear choice, a clear distinction.
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Old 07-03-2007, 09:55 AM
 
646 posts, read 1,064,069 times
Reputation: 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by AAA2125 View Post
Many people cite the mantra, God is love so He could not have possibly made hell, much less send people there. This statement is based on two misconceptions, the nature of God, and the nature of man.

Firstly, many people believe that God is love, to the exclusion of all else. this is simply not the case. God IS love, but he is also righteous, holy, just, and WRATHFUL. The Bible unashamedly declares that God is full of wrath.This will seem harsh unless a person understands why is He wrathful.

....
You, like Jeff, are at least being logically consistent. I applaud you for this. God as depicted in the bible is not a benevolent cuddly bunny, he is cruel and capricious. I disagree with you as to whether or not he is just, but that is a pretty minor point overall.
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