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But this is the danger of christianity as a whole. Accept JC, and then you can do whatever. Axe murdering is ok, just so long as you accept JC as lord and saviour who died on the cross.
How is this any different from universalism? Other than the fact that universalism would include me, but Mark S.'s version of christianity would not?
Because the Bible very specifically warns against sinning just because God's grace will abound. And many Christians believe you can lose your salvation if you don't serve God diligently, or join the right denomination, or don't get baptized, or...on and on. Which one is right? That's why to me it makes so much more sense that God has provided a means of saving His ENTIRE creation, because he realizes that we are human, and fallible. And he realizes that we are all bombarded with different beliefs, cultures, religions in our short lifespans, and that this makes it all confusing. He of course will punish sin, but not forever.
That's why to me it makes so much more sense that God has provided a means of saving His ENTIRE creation, because he realizes that we are human, and fallible.
Indeed. And that means is Jesus Christ. But what are you going to do with people who spurn the gift? People who expressly don't want it?
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
That doesn't strike you as a wee bit dishonest? Not at outright lie, but definitely a coloring of the truth.
I dunno. Depends on how you interpret these scriptures:
"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:6-7).
"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." (Romans 11:32)
"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW." (Rom. 8:20-22)
Wow! Have you ever meditated at length on this last scripture's meaning? This one Scripture does much damage to Christian doctrine. From a strictly carnal-mined approach, this Scripture is devastating. Let’s see what these words entail from Strong’s GREEK DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT:
VANITY: empty, profitless, vain, transientness [temporary], depravity [wickedness].
GROAN: moan, calamity, be in straits, murmur, grief, grudge, anguish.
TRAVAIL: pangs, to pain together, travail as in birth.
PAIN: anguish, toil for daily subsistence, starving.
The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn’t ask anyone’s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S.
Interesting. Definitely food for thought.
I'll be the first to admit that when folks in the Bible spoke of a "lake of fire" and "Gehenna" and such, they were speaking metaphorically.
I'm not going to go so far and say that I think you're wrong, Jeff. But I'm not quite willing to say you're right either. This is going on my Stuff To Think About shelf.
But this is the danger of christianity as a whole. Accept JC, and then you can do whatever. Axe murdering is ok, just so long as you accept JC as lord and saviour who died on the cross.
How is this any different from universalism? Other than the fact that universalism would include me, but Mark S.'s version of christianity would not?
You can't do anything as long as you accept Jesus as Savior. That is NOT TRUE! The difference is the heart. I can't go around killing people and then say I'm going to heaven I accepted Christ into my heart. You can't just say those words and be saved...you have to mean them! And..if you mean them you will behave accordingly and when you so slip up you will be genuinely sorry and repent of it. Otherwise...if that is not happening one would have to wonder if that person was ever saved in the first place.
And to Jeff's comment: I don't believe you can ever loose your salvation. Again, if one is behaving a certain way they probably said the words of accepting Christ but didn't do it from their heart with true meaning so they were probably never saved in the first place.
Indeed. And that means is Jesus Christ. But what are you going to do with people who spurn the gift? People who expressly don't want it?
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
The bottom line, as I see it, is that I do not believe God would ever create a soul with the intrinsic desire to be damned. Therefore, all souls desire to be saved. If we desire something, we will inevitably seek it -- at least eventually we will, under the right conditions.Souls that do not seek salvation in this earthly life simply are too much under the influence of the desires of the flesh; but when the flesh falls away at death and the soul is liberated, the soul will be returned to its natural preponderance of inclinations, which is on balance to seek God. Therefore, I believe in the afterlife all souls will desire to be redeemed, and will be willing to do whatever is necessary to be reconciled and reunited with their Creator. In other words, human free will is not absolute, since God has programmed us all with a will to return to Him in the end. I believe also that God exists outside of time (which He created anyway) and therefore has literally all of eternity to draw mankind unto Himself.
I know...I started that thread...I'm having a hard time getting off!
BTW, Jeff...you have interesting and consistent thoughts on these subjects and while I may not agree, I think they are well thought out and thought provoking.
You can't do anything as long as you accept Jesus as Savior. That is NOT TRUE! The difference is the heart. I can't go around killing people and then say I'm going to heaven I accepted Christ into my heart. You can't just say those words and be saved...you have to mean them! And..if you mean them you will behave accordingly and when you so slip up you will be genuinely sorry and repent of it. Otherwise...if that is not happening one would have to wonder if that person was ever saved in the first place.
And to Jeff's comment: I don't believe you can ever loose your salvation. Again, if one is behaving a certain way they probably said the words of accepting Christ but didn't do it from their heart with true meaning so they were probably never saved in the first place.
AHHH.........MUST.....GET....OFFLINE!
I agree with you, once saved, ALWAYS saved, doesn't matter about the denomination, if your baptized, it's all about Jesus.
The bottom line, as I see it, is that I do not believe God would ever create a soul with the intrinsic desire to be damned. Therefore, all souls desire to be saved. If we desire something, we will inevitably seek it -- at least eventually we will, under the right conditions.
I've got no problem with that. But the problem with sin and temptation is that is really just a perversion of the truth. Lust is just love gone wrong. Who was it who said that the greatest angels turned into the vilest devils?
Damnation is not an instant process. People don't usually "fall" into sin. They usually meander. It's one little step followed by another. Two steps back, one step forward, two steps back, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace
Souls that do not seek salvation in this earthly life simply are too much under the influence of the desires of the flesh; but when the flesh falls away at death and the soul is liberated, the soul will be returned to its natural preponderance of inclinations, which is on balance to seek God. Therefore, I believe in the afterlife all souls will desire to be redeemed, and will be willing to do whatever is necessary to be reconciled and reunited with their Creator. In other words, human free will is not absolute, since God has programmed us all with a will to return to Him in the end. I believe also that God exists outside of time (which He created anyway) and therefore has literally all of eternity to draw mankind unto Himself.
You may well be right. I'm not trained theologian, and I'm certainly not omnipotent. But myself, I sure wouldn't bet the bank on it.
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This is going on my Stuff To Think About shelf.
