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I believe that God does not make mistakes, therefore people should accept their gender. And I believe that if someone has a sex change operation they are so far from God's will in their lives that they are listening to every thing except God.
On the other hand, if someone becomes a Christian after the fact I think they should pray and ask for guidance.
I believe if they are sincere God will direct them in this matter.
Then you have to make some allowances for those born with disabilities? Surely we cannot suggest that those who are cognitively challeged and extremely phsically challenged from birth are normal in anyone'e eyes, let alone God's?
Then the idea there are "no mistakes" would condemn any elective surgery?
Perhaps each person is uniquely and wonderfully
made. Accepting and loving yourself
as you are created would drive out the torment
of having to change something that is already
perfect and lovely. God knows what he is doing. He designed each person.
That's a very nice thought..... but in the real world things are very different.
None of us can know what other people are going through. You. Me. No one. People don't just wake up one morning and decide to have gender reassignment. It's a long, personal journey. And it's a personal decision. None of us get to decide what someone does with their body.
p.s. The "torment" often comes from others. If the bullies and the finger shakers (Thou art a sinner!) accepted the trans community and respected their decisions..... there would be a lot less torment for them.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 04-20-2015 at 01:04 PM..
Of course that's complete rubbish. Gays who pretend to be straight, transgenders who try to convince themselves that their affinity for the opposite gender is "just a phase" often go through life utterly miserable. Suicide rates are high. Apparently, "driving out that torment" doesn't work.
In a perverse way, both you and sophiebrand are arguing for the same thing: letting things be as they are. But this is the problem we unbelievers always get into with believers ... a completely different view of What Is. S.B. argues (extrabiblically, I might add) that your gender identity is determined by your physical gender and that you shouldn't modify your physical gender or its expression even if your gender identity is at odds with it. You are arguing that everyone feels how they feel, and this varies independently of their physical gender. In other words you are correctly identifying "what is" as what actually occurs here in the actual Real World.
This is ever the fundamental issue with fundamentalists. They will demand that reality conform to the Bible (or as in this case, their highly extrapolated views vaguely based in the Bible) whereas most people, when they see a self evident rupture between reality and the Bible, will either change their interpretation of the Bible or reject it altogether. But for a Bibliolater, this is an unthinkable notion.
Perhaps each person is uniquely and wonderfully
made. Accepting and loving yourself
as you are created would drive out the torment
of having to change something that is already
perfect and lovely. God knows what he is doing. He designed each person.
Ah, so far that is good except for the perfect part as far as physically.
Not one of us is actually physically perfect and even for those that think they are in major ways
I'd wager that every single person here has little problem with changing what they do not see as 'perfect' in order to improve their lives or to better reflect their conception of themselves.
For some, the changes are easy and generally universally accepted........cutting or coloring your hair, trimming your nails, wearing makeup, being tattooed, etc
But those things are changing your supposedly perfect self, aren't they?
For others, it may require more serious intervention and for that we should only feel bad for them that
they have to suffer more difficult procedures.
It may be correcting a cleft palate, straightening a twisted foot and,, in this case, making changes to better define ones gender.
Then you have to make some allowances for those born with disabilities? Surely we cannot suggest that those who are cognitively challeged and extremely phsically challenged from birth are normal in anyone'e eyes, let alone God's?
Then the idea there are "no mistakes" would condemn any elective surgery?
Oh yay, I have the opportunity to quote scripture!
Quote:
2And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?" 3Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4"We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.…
God made these people blind, not as a mistake, but so we would either be inspired to heal them, or so they can teach us (as in "what's it like being blind" is a learnable experience, because most of the world is perceived by sight). Transgender people have something to offer the world.
That said, I am transgender, and I can pin my feelings down to age 6 (I was dressed up this way by my bro). Experiences made me what I am today not nature. This does not make it any less valid. I have something to offer people. What, you might ask? How about working towards a world where people can express themselves as they feel is right, without fear. I know what persecution feels like, and I know this needs to change.
Quote:
Not one of us is actually physically perfect and even for those that think they are in major ways
I'd wager that every single person here has little problem with changing what they do not see as 'perfect' in order to improve their lives or to better reflect their conception of themselves.
For some, the changes are easy and generally universally accepted........cutting or coloring your hair, trimming your nails, wearing makeup, being tattooed, etc
But those things are changing your supposedly perfect self, aren't they?
This is distinctly not why you should go ahead with the process. Feeling flawed.
Being transgender should be about being happy in your own skin. After doing the research, I realized that hormones and surgery will effectively require money my entire life, since if I keep my testes and do the vaginoplasty, I will need to keep taking or hormonal reversion sets in. If I do the orchi, I no longer have to worry about that, but then I need to worry about not taking them And neither process changes stuff that already happened, like my bone structure. I also realized that given my past, I don't generally attach well to men. As in, I generally don't want a surgery because while I want to live fulltime as female, I want a sex life as a male.
Being transgender varies from person to person how much about yourself you want to change. I'm not taking hormones, not having surgery "down there" at least not until they make a SRS that actually produces its own hormones and gives you a fertile reproductive system (I've wanted to become pregnant, even though I'd still like my partner to be female, I want her eggs and my old sperm). Until that point, all I actually want is to get rid of unsightly facial/body hair. Even as male, I hate shaving, and as female it basically forces me to be in makeup. Makeup's okay for special occasions, but I shouldn't have to wear it. So yea, electrolysis.
Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 04-21-2015 at 05:42 AM..
God made these people blind, not as a mistake, but so we would either be inspired to heal them, or so they can teach us (as in "what's it like being blind" is a learnable experience, because most of the world is perceived by sight).
There are all sorts of ways to wax philosophical and rationalize the heck out of blindness or any other limitation. But our very talent at doing so is only necessary because those limitations exist in spades for us to deal with.
Of course blindness, bad as it is, isn't as bad as it gets. I'd rather be blind than have spinal bifida or elephantitis or any number of other things.
Let us test this notion of yours and see if you would be willing to be blinded so that the works of god could be shown in you. Or let us have you trade places with someone like Shirina who has an entirely unwanted disease. There is no shortage of those.
This is distinctly not why you should go ahead with the process. Feeling flawed.
Being transgender should be about being happy in your own skin.
Guess you discounted the point that everyone is 'flawed' in one way or another.
Find me a perfect human being and I'll back down from that stance.
And yes, if you are OK with yourself or with keeping some things unchanged and changing others , that is all that matters.
There's no doubt that it's the attitudes of others accepting however you decide to be that is the biggest problem. But while you'll find many that will do this you'll find many more that can't.
That, unfortunately, will never change because none of us are......ta da!...perfect.
Nah, it's just the latter part of your post seemed to emphasize fixing it. We are by nature imperfect. It's a matter of deciding what you are happy with.
Being transgender is a spectrum, based on decisions. Some people do facial surgery. Some people like their faces, and don't have particularly feminine ones. Some people need to get rid of their sexual organs because they feel unclean or something. I would feel like other people telling people what they should and shouldn't do with their surgery is pretty wrong.
Mordant, you're calling it a limitation. If you're blind, there are things that you are actually happier not seeing. Like some of the people at Walmart (400 lb women with body piercings and hairy moles). I am nearsighted. Being blind would mean I don't have to wear these glasses. Being blind would mean I could allow people to take care of me, without feeling guilty about it. But the point is, I wasn't born blind. I was however given my life, and the choice of what to do with my experiences. It would be a waste to see this as a mistake, and be unhappy with it. God allowed this to happen, so I will make my choice to be pleased with it.
We were made correctly by God, the person desiring this change has disturbing issues.
Oh really? Then that means we can blame God for all of the nasty diseases and disabilities in this world. It's all on him for making people (correctly) with cancer, Parkinsons, autism, Lou Gherigs, Downs Syndrome, muscular dystrophy, and on and on and on. It only showcases God's monstrous behavior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by perry335654
To take matters in your own hands with a change such as this is like one is playing god .
*snicker*
"Playing God."
It's been my experience that the only time a person actually "plays God" is when that person changes something about themselves in such a way as to be uncomfortable for the believer. And I KNOW that transgenders are even more of an enigma to the fundamentalists than gays. So ... in order to justify your preconceived Moderator cut: acronym removed attitude, you simply call it "playing God."
Except we play God all the time. Whenever we receive any kind of medical treatment whether it's antibiotics or a triple bypass you are playing God at least as much as anyone who is transgendered. Piercing your ears, wearing glasses, a hearing aid, a prosthetic limb ... aren't we supposed to live miserably being near/far sighted or half deaf or stuck in a wheelchair? Isn't that what God wants since he made people with bad vision, bad hearing, or missing limbs?
Because whenever anyone tries to bamboozle the rest of us with the "playing God" excuse, you can't pick and choose the definition based on your personal comfort zone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by perry335654
When we turn our lives to God we get over our selfish needs as our thoughts are taken off ourselves and on to others and the Lord. When we come to the Lord we have a change of mind and heart.
And there it is, ladies and gentlemen. I bolded this quote because it is THE single worst thing about religion - especially fundamentalism. Yeah, I can go on about fascism and the encroachment of religion into politics and legislation, the blatant immorality of the fundamentalist position, etc. etc.
But the above quote is the root cause of WHY all of the other problems exist.
With most religious belief, with a special nod toward fundamentalism, it's all about the god. They'll pay lip service about treating each other well, but even THAT is determined by what the god wants - or what they perceive the god wants. No one can REALLY know for sure what a god wants which is why there is so much division and fracturing within the same faith.
Your fellow human beings come in a very distant second. The god comes first and all of the emphasis, attention, and effort is given to this god. It is the same pastime of our ancient ancestors - placating and pleasing a made-up supernatural entity. Because of this, humanity suffers for it; we pay the penalty because your faith isn't about people or our world (because this life is a joke anyhow since the real one starts after you die).
Nope ... it's the god that matters and if someone thought god wants us to light off all of our nukes and wipe ourselves out, that's exactly what that someone would do (and don't scoff because there are people who actually DO believe we should cause our own Armageddon to usher in the return of Jesus). It's crazy talk and a crazy belief system.
You talk about getting over OUR selfish needs while simultaneously worshiping the most selfish being in the cosmos - the one being that shouldn't need anything turns out to be the neediest entity to have ever existed (for the sake of argument). And that's the problem. With your eyes fixed skyward, you tend not to notice the things going on right beside you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by perry335654
To the person who has already had the surgery and wants the Lord to be a part of their life, no we would not change back to the previous sex but to have an ongoing change of heart and mind to want to serve the Lord. We are all sinners saved by His grace
Yeah, that's just what an omnipotent being needs - a bunch of servants. That is the epitome of laziness when an all-powerful god who can create universes with a word has servants and slaves doing his bidding instead.
Last edited by mensaguy; 04-21-2015 at 07:17 AM..
Reason: acronym removed
We are born naked and alone. I suppose playing God would be putting clothes on. Adam and Eve got a talking to for that, but after which, it was never brought up again.
God isn't selfish, and doesn't want servants. God might use followers, but it's clear that we have free will for a reason.
What if God wants us to seek treatment for issues? Or be happy with how we are? Or a mix? Or to make up our own minds?
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