Gender change: approved by God? (faith, Catholic, pray, Christian)

[kaykay]

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

I wasn't saying that all Christians were judgemental but I can think of at least one ( after getting a severe infraction the other day I have learnt my lesson well and will try not to name people any more) on this thread who seems pretty judgemental and not very compassionate about a very difficult issue. As Montanaguy said though , how about hermaphrodites ? Created by god if you believe in him , if that's not a mistake what is it ?

I do believe in the natural course of things, that tragic birth defects occur. Sure they do.According to Christian theology, we are not living in a perfect world. This is due to the introduction of sin. When Christians say we are living in "a fallen world" that's what we mean. Paul writes in the book of Romans that "all creation groans for redemption."

But to say that someone should attempt to change their entire gender because they feel psychological dissonance with it, seems to me to encompass more here than correcting an obvious birth defect.

[spunky1]

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

I think we have enough problems and social issues to address such as poverty, crime , famine, slavery , and many more and yet we concentrate on such issues which have no bearing on our lives at all. I just do not get it.

The more I hear some Christians , the more I realise how bigoted some people are. As human beings we should exercise compassion , love and understanding to others who are in any way vulnerable.

I find this comment incredibly offensive.
Just wondering where the compassion, love, and understanding to others is here?

[MontanaGuy]

kaykay wrote:

But to say that someone should attempt to change their entire gender because they feel psychological dissonance with it, seems to me to encompass more here than correcting an obvious birth defect.

They've had a couple of interesting documentaries on some of the educational channels that dealt with these issues. From the point of view of the patients who were having a gender change it really was like the correction of a birth defect. Gender is more complex than being physically male or female. The human mind is equally a part of our sexual nature. Just because we can't see or understand the inner workings of our brains doesn't make them any less important than the physical differences in gender. I honestly don't see why this is even a matter for religious interpretation and why it should even be controversial. If someone has any other condition that requires medical assistance there's no talk about morality, sin, etc. I suspect that the reason is that religious institutions have a very difficult time in dealing with any sexual matter and they make various proclamations that influence their followers. My own point of view is that someone who is dealing with such a life changing event deserves to be treated with respect and dignity.

[Mooseketeer]

Originally Posted by spunky1

I find this comment incredibly offensive.
Just wondering where the compassion, love, and understanding to others is here?

It's alright I find most of your comments really offensive too so I guess we are even. And by the way I said "some people" as I am perfectly aware that thank goodness there are a lot of lovely, loving and compassionate Christians. If you say I should be tolerant of intolerance and bigotry then I'm afraid I do not agree. Some of the comments posted by some posters about gay people, illegal immigrants, women who have had abortion, "liberals" etc.. are beyond belief. I did not realise you were vulnerable by the way.

[Hoosier]

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

It's alright I find most of your comments really offensive too so I guess we are even. And by the way I said "some people" as I am perfectly aware that thank goodness there are a lot of lovely, loving and compassionate Christians. If you say I should be tolerant of intolerance and bigotry then I'm afraid I do not agree. Some of the comments posted by some posters about gay people, illegal immigrants, women who have had abortion, "liberals" etc.. are beyond belief. I did not realise you were vulnerable by the way.

Thanks for clarifying. Now let's please get back on topic. If someone wants to start a new thread on christians and biogtry please do so. Thanks.

[june 7th]

Montana wrote:


"that religious institutions have a very difficult time in dealing with any sexual matter and they make various proclamations that influence their followers."

I just need to add that it is not only religious institutions that have a very difficult time dealing with sexuality in general, and transgendered issues in particular. I suspect that transgenders are among those who live their lives in quiet desperation, (on a GOOD DAY) and in ongoing states of despair on others. I cannot imagine what sort of process an individual would go through in changing their physical body to "fit" their mind, but it has to be more than just daunting...

What comes to mind isn't what one's church or god would think of sexual reassignment, at least not initially. For many, transgender surgury is truly life saving for the individual, albiet, it comes at an astronomical cost both financially as well as emotionally.

--At the end of the day, after one has undergone such a process/procedure, only to have their friends reject them, their family members abandon them, society label them as "defective" or "freaks," I guess I could only HOPE that both god and a religious community would embrace them...

Take gentle care!
-June

[MontanaGuy]

kaykay wrote:

I have gotten the impression from you that you (on this and the sex education thread) that somehow you see Christians as prudish when it comes to anything remotely touching sex and I think that's an erroneous conclusion.
Am I sensing this right and if so, why do you think that?

I really do feel that way. Of course it's not all Christians and there's a wide variety of opinions among Christians themselves. Religious institutions tend to be very conservative and very reluctant to change. I think that in matters of homosexuality, bisexuality and anything outside of the rigid boundaries of religious teachings that these institutions are still living in the dark ages. The poor handling of sexual abuse cases by churches is just an example of their reluctance to openly discuss human sexuality. The issue of gender change is just another situation in which religions are simply not up to the task of trying to understand something of a sexual nature.

[jabogitlu]

Originally Posted by spunky1

What do you mean that same sex relationships are not a sin, only in a religious context? I don't understand, sin is always within spiritual context? What other context would it be in?

I believe what he meant was that while homosexuality is a sin within church doctrine (except to UU, UCC, Anglican??, etc.), the rest of us hell-bound secularists don't give a flying flip what anyone else does with regards to sexual relations (and, to keep on topic, gender changes).

[kaykay]

Originally Posted by MontanaGuy

kaykay wrote:

I really do feel that way. Of course it's not all Christians and there's a wide variety of opinions among Christians themselves. Religious institutions tend to be very conservative and very reluctant to change. I think that in matters of homosexuality, bisexuality and anything outside of the rigid boundaries of religious teachings that these institutions are still living in the dark ages. The poor handling of sexual abuse cases by churches is just an example of their reluctance to openly discuss human sexuality. The issue of gender change is just another situation in which religions are simply not up to the task of trying to understand something of a sexual nature.

Ok, MG, I deleted my above post because as I said on another thread, "maybe I'm just cranky today!" But apparently, you already saw it, so let's discuss it!

No question that the sexual abuse cases could've been more properly handled.
I don't think it was probably as much an issue of a reluctance to deal with human sexuality issues but reluctance to discipline their own priests. But that's just my opinion (as is of course, everything else I choose to spout off about on this forum!) But I'm also not catholic so I'm probably not the most knowledgeable either about that whole scenario...

I can really only say this--that just because conservative Bible-believing Christians have some fairly well defined parameters of what we believe God requires as far as standards of morality, doesn't mean that we are uncomfortable with the notion of sex or in any way, reluctant to discuss it or deal with issues concerning human sexuality. I know Christians. I "hang" with Christians all the time. Believe me, we're not an "uptight" bunch!

We are NOT prudes, so there!!

Told ya I was cranky today!

[Hoosier]

Originally Posted by jabogitlu

I believe what he meant was that while homosexuality is a sin within church doctrine (except to UU, UCC, Anglican??, etc.), the rest of us hell-bound secularists don't give a flying flip what anyone else does with regards to sexual relations (and, to keep on topic, gender changes).

Yep, you are correct...