Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Although I am a follower of Christ, to the best of my ability, I would have to agree with you. Stay on topic. Frankly, with all the genetic experimentation going on, it does not surprise me at all that there are people born with this issue. I am surprised however at those calling themselves Christians that have little or no compassion towards these people, they are still human. I suppose anything that people do not comprehend would cause some amount of fear, people always fear what they do not understand. This is probably more prevalent than we think. It would be up to the person born this way as to whether or not they would want to have a surgical procedure done to remedy the malady. And they could go wither way, either towards the male or the female side. Whichever they feel is most appropriate. And it shouldn't matter to anyone else what their choice ,If Any, would be. They should be accepted as human, nothing more. God has 'unconditional love' for All, not just a select few who Claim that they are better than everyone else. I think that attitude would probably make God displeased.
This post from archineer might shed a little light on the subject:
Quote:
Originally Posted by archineer
...
There are a number - over a hundred - of medical conditions we call "Intersex". That is, neither wholly male, nor wholly female.
This is not a philosophical issue, or a religious issue, it's a biological issue, capable of being examined and proven by objective tests.
Most - 98.3% in fact - people are normally male, or normally female. No doubts, no ambiguities. And of the 1.7% who are Intersexed, most are asymptomatic, and never know - unless they go to a fertility clinic, or have a gene test taken for health reasons. You could be one of them.
But for 1 in 1000 - yes, that common - it's not asymptomatic at all. Many of the more conditions have already been mentioned, but they're not the most spectacular ones.
AIS - androgen insensitivity syndrome. This feminises a masculine body. There are degrees - partial AIS 1 leads to a male body with hypogonadism, undeveloped genitalia, and probably some other feminisation too. Complete AIS (CAIS) results in a female body. Miss Teen America 1991 had CAIS. Women with CAIS universally have a female gender identity - more on that later.
CAH - congenital adrenal hyperplasia. This masculinises a feminine body. Again, there are degrees. Only 1 in 10 have a male gender identity, despite somewhat masculinised genitalia.
Kleinfelter - usually 47xxy rather than 46xy (male) or 46xx (female), though 48xxyy etc and combinations are also possible. These people usually look male, with male gender identities. But some don't, and some have even given birth.
Turner syndrome - 45x - has been explained before.
Swyer sundrome - 46xy, but with a complete female reproductive system, except for the gonads. They can give birth, but only as surrogate mothers.
There are 46xy women who have given birth in the normal way. There are 46xx men who have fathered children. There are mosaics, people with both 46xx and 46xy chromosomes in different parts of their bodies. Or 45x/46xy, or 47xxy/46xx, or 47xxy/46xy, and so on.
It gets worse though. It has been common medical practice to surgically alter newborn babies with unusual genitalia so they look "normal". This means that some normal baby boys whose male organ was deemed too small were castrated, and surgically altered to look female. Many only were told later in life - usually after they'd seen a psychiatrist because they thought they were transsexual. They looked female, but their gender identity was always male.
But that's not all. There are several rare conditions, such as 5ARD and 17BHDD that cause a natural sex change. Those born with 5ARD or 17BHDD look like little girls, regardless of their chromosomes. But half masculinise at puberty, the genitals change shape, and some can even father children. For 2/3 of them, this is a wonderful relief, gender identity is usually male. But for the rest, it's a descent into nightmare, and a medical emergency.
OK, that's Intersex - but what about Transsexuality? Isn't that just a mental illness, curable with therapy or drugs or something?
No. Transsexuality is a form of Intersex, one where the brain, rather than other parts of the body, is affected. In fact, other parts of the body are often affected too, and the only area of the brain that matters is the lymbic nucleus, the parts that deal with emotions, instincts, body map, ovulation and so on.
This has been known since 1996, as the result of autopsies on the brains of transsexual people. We've known that male and female brains differ structurally for even longer, but the results from 1996 show that transsexuals have cross-gendered brains, just as some intersexed people have cross-gendered genitalia or chromosomes. We can now use Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) to show this on people who aren't dead. Which is a distinct advantage to the people concerned.
See:
Zhou JN, Hofman MA, Gooren LJ, Swaab DF. A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. Nature (1995) 378:68–70. Page not found : Nature Publishing Group (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../378068a0.html - broken link)
Some gray and white matter regions of the brain are sexually dimorphic. The best MRI technique for identifying subtle differences in white matter is diffusion tensor imaging (DTI). The purpose of this paper is to investigate whether white matter patterns in female to male (FtM) transsexuals before commencing cross-sex hormone treatment are more similar to that of their biological sex or to that of their gender identity.
METHOD:
DTI was performed in 18 FtM transsexuals and 24 male and 19 female heterosexual controls scanned with a 3 T Trio Tim Magneton. Fractional anisotropy (FA) was performed on white matter fibers of the whole brain, which was spatially analyzed using Tract-Based Spatial Statistics.
RESULTS:
In controls, males have significantly higher FA values than females in the medial and posterior parts of the right superior longitudinal fasciculus (SLF), the forceps minor, and the corticospinal tract. Compared to control females, FtM showed higher FA values in posterior part of the right SLF, the forceps minor and corticospinal tract. Compared to control males, FtM showed only lower FA values in the corticospinal tract.
CONCLUSIONS:
Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated FtM transsexuals is closer to the pattern of subjects who share their gender identity (males) than those who share their biological sex (females). Our results provide evidence for an inherent difference in the brain structure of FtM transsexuals. "It's the first time it has been shown that the brains of female-to-male transsexual people are masculinised," Guillamon says.
Quote:
In a separate study, the team used the same technique to compare white matter in 18 male-to-female transsexual people with that in 19 males and 19 females. Surprisingly, in each transsexual person's brain the structure of the white matter in the four regions was halfway between that of the males and females (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.11.007).
"Their brains are not completely masculinised and not completely feminised, but they still feel female," says Guillamon.
The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb.
However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain.
There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.
Or...perhaps we should just ignore all the science?
Are there some people who seriously think that intersexed, transgender and homosexual people all just "choose" to change the way their brains develop while they are still fetuses in the womb?
I think this story shows clearly that gender identity and sexual orientation are innate. These parents had a baby son who had his penis accidently destroyed during circumcision. They made the decision to raise him as a girl and not tell him he was born male. They gave him hormones. They dressed him as a girl. They had him in 'therapy' to convince him he was a girl. Yet he knew he was a male. He acted like a male. He was attracted to females like a heterosexual male. Because he was born a heterosexual male.
I seem to be having a hard time getting quality responses to this question from Christians in my area, so I figured I would bring it to the CD forum. They either seem to avoid the discussion by changing the subject when I bring it up, or they just decline to have an opinion. Several have said that no such thing exists. Do you believe in the existence of babies being born with intersex complications? Most Christians I encounter that actually bother answering the question DO NOT. Why is this?
And if this condition does truly exist (which, through the existence of many real life cases, the majority of the educated world accepts that it does), is it right for the parents to be allowed to "play god" and determine which sex their child should go with? What if they choose wrong, and the child drifts the other way in their sexual preferences/tendencies? Are they then therefore comitting homosexual acts if their preference does not match the choice of sex made by their parents?
It seems the reason why Christians try to avoid this subject is because it is not as easy to answer as the "Is homosexuality a choice?" question. Is this topic just too much to handle? Do people just not want to believe that it happens? This is an honest question and I'm looking for an honest answer.
Thanks to everyone in advance for their thoughts on the matter.
Yes this would be a difficult question for a Christian to answer, based on their own sources (Bible). Actually, if you do understand the way God looks at the issue, its trivial.
When I decided that I wanted to know the Truth, I started searching for a "better" answer to the issue of homosexuality. I was not satisfied with even the answer that Prog Christians might give - "We don't judge"
Moderator cut: delete
You see what you do in real LOVE, is never a problem. Never ever. It is a problem what you do in lust, without real love.
Suddenly I realised that if you do not love your wife/husband you can "commit sin" inside a marriage. Wow. And gays, bis, etc as long as you really love your partner, there is absolutely no problem.
But, there is a book of a true story, which is dreadfully sad, because the wrong choice was made. Sorry I can't remember the book, but it looks like the book has been referenced by an earlier poster. The "world expert" who gave his opinion was wrong, very wrong. And he will pay for those mis-guided opinions.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 10-16-2011 at 08:38 PM..
Reason: solicitation of your website/page/book, etc. not allowed
People of faith draw their views of life and morality from whichever religious text informs their beliefs. In the case of Christians, large numbers support their views on subjects such as intersex, homosexuality and transsexualism on what it written in Biblical text (although the Bible as published leaves out many Christian writings).
However, it is far easier to find a reference to (what is assumed to be) homosexuality and transsexualism (for the latter there is often confusion between transsexualism and transvestism - two very different issues) than intersex.
The Bible does not refer to intersex conditions specifically, but does mention ‘eunuchs’ in Matthew 19:12 - here, Jesus said “For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it”. (King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
A lack of a clear reference to intersex (a term not used during the times when Biblical texts were written) means that Christians are left to make their decisions, theories and solutions to an issue that is all too real - the existence of human beings who are often not clearly male or female. Since so much of the Christian faith is based on the assumption that there are only two sexes, male and female, all issues to do with relationships, marriage and procreation are based on this binary model.
What Christians (and other faiths) find very difficult to rationalise is the question of ‘choice’. Many, who have never stood in the shoes of gay or trans people believe that homosexuality and and transsexualism are a ‘choice’ (conveniently forgetting that their own sexuality and gender identity are not a choice at all). When faced with intersex people who have medical proof that they have atypical anatomy and physiology, Christians fall into at least two groups, there are the ones who stand with their fingers in their ears preferring not to have to listen to the truth or they welcome intersex people into their fold and learn all they can about the causes and implications of being born ‘different’.
Speaking as a clinician who has treated many people who present with a variation of intersex, I can say with some certainty that this population come in many versions of male, female and other. For some, the difference is chromosomal (a variation on either 46, XX or 46, XY) and /or external genitalia variation. The latter is not surprising in that a male is an adapted from the same base as female and the first few weeks after conception all embryos look alike. The presence of a Y chromosome kick starts (or should kick start) virilisation and by week 9 (after date of conception), the embryo becomes a fetus. The kidneys, liver, brain, and lungs are all beginning to function. The fingers and toes are separate and the external genitalia are formed. a tiny fetal phallus develops into a penis or reduces slightly to from a clitoris. Virilisation also closes the labia to form a ******* or stays open to form the outer labia in females. In a fetus destined to be female, immature internal reproductive organs (uterus, fallopian tubes and ovaries) form, whereas, in those destined to be male, the secretion of special chemicals stop this development and instead, male reproductive organs such as testes, vas deferens etc form. At any stage these processes may be interrupted or stopped altogether due to genetically induced failure or hormone levels reducing or increasing.
The fact that never ceases to amaze me is that ANY infants survive at all, this is why every live birth, whether male, female or other is to be celebrated. Intersex people do not choose how they develop at any stage (only an idiot would believe otherwise). Equally, no person with an intersex condition is somehow inferior or out-of-place in society (unless the rest of society are perfect in every way). The anatomical variation and varying levels of hormones mean that some are born with a female phenotype (external appearance) and male internal organs (e.g. PAIS) or male phenotype and female reproductive organs (CAH) or start out with a female phenotype and at the commencement of puberty begin to virilise - the clitoris grows to resemble a penis and the testes descent into the groin (or ******* if the labia are fused). This latter group have the condition 5 Alpha Reductase and genetically are 46, XY.
If we make room (as we should) to accommodate and regard as equal, all races, creeds, skin colours, languages, cultures, beliefs etc, then there is no excuse to ignore, deny or condemn the existence of intersex people. They are part of our species and are here amongst us and are here to stay.
I seem to be having a hard time getting quality responses to this question from Christians in my area, so I figured I would bring it to the CD forum. They either seem to avoid the discussion by changing the subject when I bring it up, or they just decline to have an opinion. Several have said that no such thing exists. Do you believe in the existence of babies being born with intersex complications? Most Christians I encounter that actually bother answering the question DO NOT. Why is this?
Your question leaves out God. Perhaps you should try "Do you believe in the existence of physical bodies which do not completely or clearly show the orientation of the soul?"
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
