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Old 10-23-2010, 05:43 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 13,526,605 times
Reputation: 6449
Quote:
Originally Posted by proudmommy View Post
Then that explains why there is a difference between those who want to get to the bottom of things, who are objective, who use science to gain factual information...people like us
You can believe whatever snide self-congratulatory thing about yourself or "your kind" that you want to believe. I'm not stopping you and if you think I am then apologies.

What I meant was the ability to "explain things away" is not really proof in the way you might think. What it shows is there could be an alternate explanation, it is not proof that an alternate explanation is right. At least not in the cases I mean. I find the level of "explaining away" necessary for atheism to be too much. It basically requires humans be both gullible fools and the only source of information we have because in atheism no God or Noosphere or whatever will give us facts.

I find atheism so unsatisfying, plus proselytizing atheists to be generally sophomoric and ignorant, that I feel there is no reason I must accept it. Atheism, of the kind you are allying to, is apparently based on compulsion or coercion. I'm not going to be coerced or compelled by you, or AREQUIPA or anyone, to become something I feel is not inevitable by the evidence or helpful in living a good life.

Sure I've thought of being a happy and moral one-dimensional cartoon character "Atheist Tom." But I'm not really interested. So at best you could push me toward Taoism, but I'm skeptical of that even. My main point is you will have to peddle your puerile proselytizing elsewhere because I ain't biting. And if that is going to make you produce some other childish picture or Youtube video to characterize me than that's your problem.

 
Old 10-23-2010, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,238 posts, read 26,459,928 times
Reputation: 10573
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
That is nonsense. My brother was deaf, yet he still enjoyed music and was a good dancer. He "heard" the beat of music through the vibrations it caused in his upper body..It had to be loud, mind you.
He may EXPERIENCE it, but there is still no sound for him. And that is his reality.
 
Old 10-23-2010, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
24,666 posts, read 17,887,752 times
Reputation: 9834
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
He may EXPERIENCE it, but there is still no sound for him. And that is his reality.
The point is regardless of whether he hears it or not, the sound still exists, and he knows it.
 
Old 10-23-2010, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,238 posts, read 26,459,928 times
Reputation: 10573
But it doesn't. He doesn't hear...there is no sound.
 
Old 10-23-2010, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
24,666 posts, read 17,887,752 times
Reputation: 9834
Ok, have it your way...
 
Old 10-23-2010, 09:38 PM
 
16,310 posts, read 14,230,469 times
Reputation: 7958
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Ok, have it your way...
We know that sound is a mechanical wave that is an oscillation of pressure transmitted through a solid, liquid, or gas, which can be sensed.

Your brother and other deaf people can sense it, just not with their ears. Our ears sense the vibrations, their bodies sensed the vibrations, thus they also 'hear'.

But recognize you are debating facts with anti-fact crowd, I guess sound is not defined in the bible, so does it exist at all?
 
Old 10-23-2010, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Las Flores, Orange County, CA
26,362 posts, read 54,483,938 times
Reputation: 16321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post

But recognize you are debating facts with [an] anti-fact crowd
That's a good way of looking at it. I got a feeling I'll be stealing this line in the future.
 
Old 10-23-2010, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Las Flores, Orange County, CA
26,362 posts, read 54,483,938 times
Reputation: 16321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post

I find the level of "explaining away" necessary for atheism to be too much. It basically requires humans be both gullible fools and the only source of information we have because in atheism no God or Noosphere or whatever will give us facts.

Atheism, of the kind you are allying to, is apparently based on compulsion or coercion.
The only content of your post that isn't wrong is the content that makes no sense.

Atheists don't "believe" anything and scientists have strict standards for what constitutes proof.

Information strictly from "gullible" humans is either ignored due to subjectivity or verified by calibrated instruments.

But as one other poster noted, It's tough to discuss facts with the "anti-fact" crowd.
 
Old 10-23-2010, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
24,666 posts, read 17,887,752 times
Reputation: 9834
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
But it doesn't. He doesn't hear...there is no sound.
So then according to your way of thinking, when you are alone, nothing exists except you and what you sense around you? All I have to say about that is....weird.
 
Old 10-23-2010, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Kent, Ohio
980 posts, read 554,707 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
But it doesn't. He doesn't hear...there is no sound.
Words in natural language often have multiple meanings. Philosophers distinguish two meanings of 'sound.'

1) Sound = the contents of a auditory experience; that which causes the experience, or that which the experience represents. (e.g., vibrations in air molecules.)

2) Sound = the particular auditory qualitative nature of the experience. The sound qualia.

Obviously, in the first sense, sound exists whether anyone hears it or not. In the second sense, most people would say it only exists so long as someone is hearing it. So the answer to the question "Does the sound exist when no one it there to hear it" depends on the what you have in mind when asking the question.

I go out on a limb and suggest that sound qualia exists unconsciously even when no one hears it. But this depends on my weird belief that the world is fundamentally experiential. To make this work I go back to Aristotle's distinction between actual and potential. A potential is real, even if it is not actualized. The sound qualia of the tree falling are real, even if no on hears them.

The reality of potentials can be understood in terms of quantum mechanics. The paths not taken by an electron in a double-slit experiment are real in the sense that they must be taken into account by our theories of physics. If they were not "real" in some important sense, why would we have to take account of them in order for the theory to work?

I suspect that "unheard auditory qualia" (i.e., the sounds of the tree in the forest) are real qualia ("real" in the sense that a perfect theory of physics would have to account for them), even though they are not actualized as qualia in the experience of an actual observer.
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